Thursday
Feb222007
No Man's Land, part 2
Thursday, February 22, 2007 at 12:15AM
Once again, let me say how much I love you people. I love that an actual discussion is being had, and that you don't all agree! If you haven't been around in a while I'm talking about my previous post and the comments that have followed.
In the meantime, the interview I mentioned last post has been put up, as has a review of my latest record The Morning. Here is the interview and here is the review.
I want to expound on a couple points brought in the above articles, as well as stuff I said last night. In no particular order, here are my thoughts, as always, open for discussion...
- Thanks to the bulk of you who advised and encouraged me to keep on doing what I'm doing. I appreciate that more than you know, and it's what I'll be doing.
- My big concern, however, is that people who might really like my music are turned off if they hear about me as a "christian artist". This is what the interviewer, A.L. Harper says, and it's why she wouldn't have done the interview had I been brought to her attention that way.
And she's right. Completely. I'm exactly the same way. I don't really listen to "christian" music, and if you give me some music to check out and you call it that, I probably won't listen to it. It carries with it a connotation of not being good, and of being music I won't like. That's a stereotype, but stereotypes don't spring up at random. They're hasty judgments based on previous experience, and while some are terribly wrong, they are also often accurate.
Most "christian" music I have heard, and believe me, I've heard more than most of you, will tend to be simplistic, preachy, poorly made and shallow. There are wonderful, incredible exceptions, but that's just what they are: exceptions. I've had enough experience to know that, as a genre, "christian" music rarely affects me and often offends me.
There are two major problems with a genre defined not even by lyrical content but by the religious belief of the artist. One is that the content has to be very surface-y to cover a wide variety of actual beliefs. Secondly, it makes great assumptions on the artist's purpose and allegiances.
Most people assume that "christian" music is evangalistic, meaning its a means to an end to convert people. And most people would, historically, be right. Until very recently that was the main goal of the genre.
Most people then also assume that the artist is pro-life, voted for the Bush family, has perfect kids (who will soon rebel) and that they don't drink, smoke or watch R movies. And again, they may be right. Sometimes. But not all the time. Just like any other group in any situation, people are people, and they are all incredibly unique and will continue to surprise you with what they think.
This broad canvas over every artist who professes this certain faith implies so much, and I don't want that, and that's what I want to know how to be rid of.
Hear me now: I am not ashamed to believe in Jesus. I am ashamed of Pat Robertson hijacking my faith for his crazy political agenda. I am ashamed of a President who confuses good vs. evil with "they have oil and I want it". I am ashamed of Jerry Falwell and Benny Hinn. I called Bruce Wilkinson, author of The Prayer of Jabez, a liar and a crook to his face. I would do it again today. Because he, like these other guys, is taking what I believe and twisting it for money and for power and, in their headline-grabbing foolishness, making the truly faithful and honest believers look like idiots.
This is the main reason I am scared of "christian" music. I don't want to listen to it, because I assume it will be shallow, preachy and offensive to those who don't agree. I don't want to be called it, because I like my music and I want others to hear it, without the Left Behind-reading, Harry Potter-burning stigma.
BUT I'm here, so what do I do?
ALSO there is a great need for the Church to overcome this negative image. The links I posted last night to Dalit Freedom, Compassion, Blood:Water are what we should be seeing. I wish that the image people thought of when they thought of Christianity was feeding the poor and freeing the oppressed instead of picketing gay-rights parades.
That is the main reason I play for Caedmon's Call. They are a "christian" band, without a doubt. And they're doing amazing things for the people in India, and they're getting the Church involved, using music to get in the door. That, to me, is incredibly worthwhile.
So I'm left with this: I don't want to play "christian" music if it means I'm expected to believe and act one way and only that one way. I don't want to NOT play "christian" music if it means I have to do the same thing with an opposite set of rules. I guess I stay where I am and make the best music I'm able.
But I don't want to just "let the chips fall where they may". Again, I have a wife and two very adorable little girls to care for. And I would like my music to have a bigger, wider audience. Suggestions? Opinions? Further discussion?
In the meantime, the interview I mentioned last post has been put up, as has a review of my latest record The Morning. Here is the interview and here is the review.
I want to expound on a couple points brought in the above articles, as well as stuff I said last night. In no particular order, here are my thoughts, as always, open for discussion...
- Thanks to the bulk of you who advised and encouraged me to keep on doing what I'm doing. I appreciate that more than you know, and it's what I'll be doing.
- My big concern, however, is that people who might really like my music are turned off if they hear about me as a "christian artist". This is what the interviewer, A.L. Harper says, and it's why she wouldn't have done the interview had I been brought to her attention that way.
And she's right. Completely. I'm exactly the same way. I don't really listen to "christian" music, and if you give me some music to check out and you call it that, I probably won't listen to it. It carries with it a connotation of not being good, and of being music I won't like. That's a stereotype, but stereotypes don't spring up at random. They're hasty judgments based on previous experience, and while some are terribly wrong, they are also often accurate.
Most "christian" music I have heard, and believe me, I've heard more than most of you, will tend to be simplistic, preachy, poorly made and shallow. There are wonderful, incredible exceptions, but that's just what they are: exceptions. I've had enough experience to know that, as a genre, "christian" music rarely affects me and often offends me.
There are two major problems with a genre defined not even by lyrical content but by the religious belief of the artist. One is that the content has to be very surface-y to cover a wide variety of actual beliefs. Secondly, it makes great assumptions on the artist's purpose and allegiances.
Most people assume that "christian" music is evangalistic, meaning its a means to an end to convert people. And most people would, historically, be right. Until very recently that was the main goal of the genre.
Most people then also assume that the artist is pro-life, voted for the Bush family, has perfect kids (who will soon rebel) and that they don't drink, smoke or watch R movies. And again, they may be right. Sometimes. But not all the time. Just like any other group in any situation, people are people, and they are all incredibly unique and will continue to surprise you with what they think.
This broad canvas over every artist who professes this certain faith implies so much, and I don't want that, and that's what I want to know how to be rid of.
Hear me now: I am not ashamed to believe in Jesus. I am ashamed of Pat Robertson hijacking my faith for his crazy political agenda. I am ashamed of a President who confuses good vs. evil with "they have oil and I want it". I am ashamed of Jerry Falwell and Benny Hinn. I called Bruce Wilkinson, author of The Prayer of Jabez, a liar and a crook to his face. I would do it again today. Because he, like these other guys, is taking what I believe and twisting it for money and for power and, in their headline-grabbing foolishness, making the truly faithful and honest believers look like idiots.
This is the main reason I am scared of "christian" music. I don't want to listen to it, because I assume it will be shallow, preachy and offensive to those who don't agree. I don't want to be called it, because I like my music and I want others to hear it, without the Left Behind-reading, Harry Potter-burning stigma.
BUT I'm here, so what do I do?
ALSO there is a great need for the Church to overcome this negative image. The links I posted last night to Dalit Freedom, Compassion, Blood:Water are what we should be seeing. I wish that the image people thought of when they thought of Christianity was feeding the poor and freeing the oppressed instead of picketing gay-rights parades.
That is the main reason I play for Caedmon's Call. They are a "christian" band, without a doubt. And they're doing amazing things for the people in India, and they're getting the Church involved, using music to get in the door. That, to me, is incredibly worthwhile.
So I'm left with this: I don't want to play "christian" music if it means I'm expected to believe and act one way and only that one way. I don't want to NOT play "christian" music if it means I have to do the same thing with an opposite set of rules. I guess I stay where I am and make the best music I'm able.
But I don't want to just "let the chips fall where they may". Again, I have a wife and two very adorable little girls to care for. And I would like my music to have a bigger, wider audience. Suggestions? Opinions? Further discussion?
Reader Comments (79)
Andrew,
I don't believe you are letting "the chips fall where they may.� I just think you are the beginning of movement and it's hard to see the end. Although I want you to provide for your family, I think patience is called for in this instance. You are going up against some mighty forces: money, power, marketing, popular culture, the religious "right." You cannot overcome them overnight. In a way, you are in a mission field of sorts.
But I believe you are part of the beginning of a serious movement against these forces. The Square Pegs is a great idea. Build that community. Let it become a nationwide group of artists and their fans who are standing for all the things you write about. Each of the 'Pegs need this community so you don't feel like you're alone in the fight. And find those churches that support quality arts, they're out there.
Your friend Andrew Peterson has become my favorite artist. I have never been as moved so much by a person's writing and artistry as his. Far Country is arguable the best sounding album I have ever heard (lyrically, musically...and the production-seriously awesome, Andrew). I have donated money to his "ministry." I am working on hosting a concert. I learned more about you and the other 'Pegs becaus of him. Based on yours and his recommendation, I am having Rick Felkel build me a new guitar. I don't do message boards and Blogs, yet APs board and AOs Blog are frequent stopping points in my daily surfing. I've bought more 'Peg CDs to give away than I can count. I mean...look at what you're a part of!
As for providing for your family, you may have to think outside the box to generate income in the time being. I don't know what that will look like, but that's what the great small businesses in this country are all about. Those crazy Baby Einstein videos started in Julie's basement for crying out loud. She's made millions selling it to Disney.
Anway, I've written too much. I'll let others sound off. But keep the faith...I think you're on to something.
I'm with you in that the connotation "Christian Music" usually denotes something that I won't like, and that rule has always been the case (with very few exceptions). The only point of "Christian Music" is so that people have something that is easily categorized as "not being evil". Guys like Robbie Seay are breaking the mold because they make music that is not only instantly classified as "Christian", but is viewed as great art as well.
Dude, make the best records you can make and let the chips fall where they may...unless those chips are categorizing you in Inspirational or Christian. If you want more people to hear the stuff you put out, then you gotta avoid those labels at all cost.
Dude, I learned something by reading that interview, that I really should have known. I didn't realize that Marylin was about The Sun Also Rises. And I should have. And almost did. That book was the first thing that popped into my head when I heard that line about the bullfights, but I guess I just let it go and forgot about it before really developing the idea. Now that song makes a whole lot more sense.
And as far as your post goes. 2 thumbs up for candor. I agree about the sad meaning of "christian" music. Thanks for being both blunt and clear. Oh, and 2 more thumbs up for calling the Jabez author a liar and crook to his face. I envy such an opportunity.
Andrew,
that was honestly one of the best blog/articles i've ever read about "Christian" music. You summed up almost my exact thoughts on the subject. and that's all i really know to say about that.
I discovered your music a year ago from attending a BTLOG show and I've become a faithful listener/fan/blog reader ever since. I hope and pray that you "keep on keeping on" for many years (and albums) to come.
Andy,
Never stop making the music that you are making, please! You are so good at it. Your music is beautiful. But, and I cannot stress this enough, I don't think of you as a Christian artist. Just an artist who is Christian. I'm writing a book -- as I told you -- but it isn't an atheist book. It's just a book.
And you're right when people tell me they are Christian I automatically think of people like Pat Robertson, President Bush, Jerry Falwell and Benny Hinn. I think of organisations like God Hates Fags, I think racism and intolerance. They have hijacked your religion. I'm sorry about that.
If you keep doing what you're doing you will eventually win. You can fix this broken genre. And your music is inspirational but not in a religious way. Maybe you should fix your Wiki entry.
People like you give me hope for the future of Christianity. Thanks for your honesty.
I think your friend Derek Webb has shown, also, that there is a place for writing music *to* and *about* the church that doesn't fit nicely into the CCM box, so it can be done. I think you are associated with a great group of people (both The Square Peg Alliance and Caedmon's Call) who are not willing to compromise their beliefs to fit a sub-culture. Keep good company and good art will follow!
You have some good thoughts; you have some sweeping, perhaps unjustified generalizations, but good thoughts nevertheless.
I think you're worried far too much about labels, although I respect your concern.
Make good music (which you do), and the world--Christian and non-Christian--will notice. The two best examples I know of doing that are Sixpence and Switchfoot.
I find myself both understand ing what you are saying on certain things and politely disagreeing on other points. ALL Christian music isn't bad. There are some diamonds in the rough out there.
I disagree somewhat with the thought of Christian music being, "out there to save people." I think a lot of people listen to Christian music because they are Christians. Much the same way someone in the country listens to country music. They listen to it because it comes from where they are at in theri life at that point.
That being said, I understand about the stigma attatched to Christian artists and how it affect their airplay and sales in the secular environment. Jars of Clay is an excellent example to me. I honestly believe they would get a ton more airplay on mainstream radio if they weren't known as a "Christian band."
The word Christian has been broken. And I am not sure I know the answer on how we should fix it. But some (Hinn, Robertson, etc.) completely warped God and what is means to be a follower of him. Unfortunatley, people see this and make broad generalizations that we are all like that.
I am of the belief that you are going about it the right way. Be Andy. Let people know you, love you or dislike you for you being the way you are. In time, they will find out where your beliefs are.
I feel as though I am rambling...so I will stop now. More thoughts if/as they come.
Andy,
I often find myself knodding in agreement while i read your thoughts, but this time, i felt myself wondering in agreement. I'm a much smaller-time indie artist in Upstate NY and have found myself in a similar bind. I'm a worship ministry by profession, and so that pegs me a 'christian musician' and closes most secular venues to me. Yet, my congregation is a bit 'post-modern' (sorry for the buzz-word), and thus pegs me as a 'liberal heretic' to many evangelical congregations and church-goers. And as of last friday, i also have a beautiful wife and 2 little girls. I would love to do what i do and not care what people say, but at the end of the day, i have to feed my family. So i wonder if i should be a bit more of a music-whore. I'm not sure if this is what you meant, and it is rather early in the morning for me to be thinking about such things... so if i've missed the point entirely, please forgive me. Thanks for making some of your insides public and letting us discuss them.
Thanks Andy. Thanks for speaking your mind and not just "venting to your wife at the end of the day" and then reminding her that this is "between you and me." I believe this will encourage others to come out with the things that bother them about the world we live in and how most of the time our faith is viewed as a neatly packaged, shrink wrapped, non-offensive Kmart special.
We need to speak the truth. It's important, even if the truth isn't popular.
Right with you, Andy; what a tough spot.
If I had it to do again... I never would have been in a Christian band. We preached to the choir (as A.L. said so well on the other post) every night, and punched our "ministry" card while we did it - all while making good money.
If I could go back - I'd either just be a band, or be a session musician, and look to have a positive impact in whatever place the LORD chose to send me.
These are thoughts with Christianity as well ...they can be summed up well with feelings of disappointment, embarassment, regret...
But I can't help but self reflect while we are on this topic...
"I wish that the image people thought of when they thought of Christianity was feeding the poor and freeing the oppressed instead of picketing gay-rights parades."
I totally agree, and I do mean TOTALLY agree with this statement. I wish that people thought of these redeemable qualities as well. But let me shed some honesty on this subject... Although I agree and believe everything about feeding the poor and freeing the oppressed, I'm guilty of not taking action. It's not that I'm hurting people's perception of Christianity, but I certainly not helping! I find myself passionately believing that there is a world of hurt, a world in need, and that to live like Christ we should sacrifice ourselves, our comfort, our money, and our time to show LOVE to others. I am, however, guilty of speaking with my through my heart to my mouth, but not with my actions.
I don't mean for this to be a time of confession by any means, but I wanted to point out that I have agreed with pretty much every word that Andrew has said so far, so much that I've felt like at times that I was saying it myself... But in the end, my radical views mean nothing without radical action...
Just something to think about...
Thanks for this, Andrew. I wrestle the same thoughts.
One more thought to add: My audience was at one time overwhelmingly more conservative theologically and socially and politically than I am. THey were overwhelmingly Adult Contemporary radio listeners as well. That's changed to a degree, but I'd still say that is the majority of my audience.
This bugged me for the longest time. I wanted to be the cool college artist. And I do play a lot of colleges. But I wanted to outgrow the other conservative audience - outrun them I guess and leave them behind. I got angry and cynical when I couldn't. Now, several years later, I'm thankful for the audience I have because it presents me with an unusual opportunity. Many from that more conservative crowd show up at a concert or read my blog and have their suppositions challenged, sometimes subtly and sometimes not so much. Pro-war folks have actually converted to pacifism, with no real debate - just music and conversation and reading the blog for a couple years. Politicos have realized that the poor and hungry and orphaned were never given to the governments of this world but to the Church and have started putting their lives behind mercy showing as a result. I've seen folks I don't agree with change. And, thankfully, they've changed me too.
That doesn't happen when I'm in front of a crowd of like-minded people. It doesn't happen at an Emergent conference or some artist retreat. It happens on a Sunday morning at First Whatever Church. And I've learned to love those far different from me within this family called Church as a result, and to believe in a God that changes Sauls into Pauls and middle-aged moms into rebels giving up facial money to sponsor a child in Indonesia. Crazy stuff.
I still have the questions you have, but I've also come to realize the opportunity I have while I'm waiting and searching for answers. I can infiltrate the Jabez reading crowd by being the guy who once sang "Welcome Home", and once inside, I can nudge them in new directions. It's reformation from within versus throwing stones from without.
i honestly don't know what to think.....should we be "in the world not of it"....yes, but should we be a light to them, which means being out there giving them a taste of the hope which i within us....yes. so then....where does that leave us....I am consrvative, but progressive.....i am old-fashioned, yet cutting edge....i think this is what we are to be....Biblical in our mindsets, yet progressive in our methodologies. We have to change the methods with which we get out there and reach the world with His Gospel, but we cannot change the message. Thank you Andrew for being a Christian who is an artist, and making good art.
Shaun... wow... great take on all this. My cynicism (sp?) often gets the best of me.
Andy,
I don't think the position you're in is uncommon. It may not be as public in the lives of other believers, but it's there, standing between the gossip conversation at the water cooler and the loneliness back at the cubicle. That said, I still don't envy some of the dilemmas you wrestle with, but I greatly appreciate your willingness to share them and free us to stop walking around like our hips weren't wrenched.
I'm not sure if 'be patient' is the right thing to say, but it was my first impression. I don't know if there's a glass ceiling to the amount of money you can make being an honest believer, but if there was, I would call it Persecution. It sounds so light to me compared to what goes on overseas, but in God's eyes, I think it might be persecution just the same. I will pray for you to persevere in keeping the cards on the table like you do.
AO, as i was reading your entry, i kept agreeing with almost everything you said. when i hear something is CCM before i actually hear it, i think it's going to suck. the stereotypes of CCM being what you talked about are real. i'm pretty cynical about the christian music industry, but i'm encouraged when i read about bands who are christians making it in the mainstream, or christian artists who identify the problems with the christian music industry. whatever you end up doing, i'm totally behind you on it. reading this was pretty refreshing, both your entries and the comments. thank you.
I like to play the whole "i know it's Christian music by the horrible production game" while flipping the radio dial. Why does all Christian music (off of the "major Christian labels") sound so freakin thin? It bugs the crap out of me. It's like even the most produced Christian music (off of the "major Christian labels") sounds like a live worship album. UHHHH Why is this Andy? Why?
How did Mat Kearney acieve success in both markets?
Man, All I can say is I can't listen to Christian Radio. All of it is CCM and of course are the greedy money makers. Someone mentioned Jars of Clay. Why is it that Their Hymns project is Getting Soooo much air play but I have not heard I song from their "Good Monsters" Album, Which to me sounds way better than the hymns album lyricaly and musicaly. So I just don't bother. All the songs just sound the same, They are greatly overplayed, and it just annoys the hell out of me.
But on the other hand, I believe that God as ordained those musicians to sing about Him and Him alone, to give strenght to the Church. Just as I believe their are those ordained in the Worship Leading Ministry. (This is not an excuse for music to suck. David tells us to play very skillfullyand creativly to our God. Being simple and bland does not cut it and we should not settle for it either)
I also believe their are those like you Andy, and the other square pegs and any one else in your shoes in which God ordain to be the ones who could play not to the choir, but to the whole world. Now keep in mind this is musicaly only. We should all be ministering to the World though our jobs, the way we do buisness, our chuches and communities (feeding the poor and defending the oppressed)
The Church as many members. We can't all be the hands of the Body of Christ.
It is a very Sad situation we Believers are in. And yes I used Believers instead of Christians. This "Hijacking" of Christianity
is very serious and must be delt with by us...Believers. God Help us.
Do your thing Man...God Will Provide.
So, I agree with everything that's being said and I definitely second the notion that everyone in Christendom is so unique and different in regards to personality, approach to life, beliefs (particularly details), etc. There can't be a mold we fit into other than imitating Christ. There are too many groups/things that try and fit us into a mold and it isn't fair or right. I just want to add voice of minor dissent to the discussion.
Let me preface what my thoughts with this: I'm not a big fan of Benny Hinn, Jerry Falwell, really not a fan of Pat Robertson and I disagree with Bruce Wilkinson. There is so much controversy surrounding these individuals and there is so much distaste for Christianity because of some of their actions and the actions of their colleagues. Actions in their personal lives are questionable at times, their teachings are sometimes down-right wrong and Pat Robertson makes me just wonder sometimes.
That being said, I need to acknowledge the fact that lives are being changed and touched by these people's ministries and people are ultimately finding Jesus because of what they do or what God does through them. I attended Oral Roberts University, which seems to be a hub or common denominator for a lot of these ministers, and while there I've seen a lot of these ministers minister. I found that I didn't always agree with their teaching (rarely, in fact) but I did see people wanting Jesus in their lives, people being physically healed and other sorts of manifestations of God's power. I'm not a fundamentalist but I do believe God works in these ways still and I do believe he uses these people for some reason. I honestly wonder why sometimes.
But I had a professor (who was by no means an ORU puppet) tell me once that we students would learn and know more than most Charismatic preachers and it's true, we did. But, he said, we had to realize that God had them there for a reason and we had to find out why. What was there to learn from them? I'm still learning what it is with different ministers but I do know that God can/does use anyone. I just hope I can live up to a godly character when I'm used and I pray that these ministers can stop being so shady sometimes.
But seriously, I have no idea where Wilkinson gets his stuff so I don't vouch for him today. And I still don't understand Pat Robertson.
Sorry for the long post. You guys are amazing and I love what you do and who you are, Andy.
A.L. said
"Bo, No serious, mainstream, music journalist would take Christian music seriously for one reason. The bulk of it is corn-fed, watered down, straight-off-the-tractor, comb-in-the-mouth, artistically barren music."
A.L., is this not a comment that could be said about almost all mainstream music of any genre? I agree that mainstream CCM needs and is deserving of high criticism...but musically no more so that just about EVERYTHING else on the radio. Agree?
"It’s bland and boring and not many people like to be preached at. If that’s what you’re into then go for it. I and most others, are not."
this statement actually took me aback...just about every song I've ever heard is "preaching" about something...suggesting something...hoping to lead the listener somewhere...so I'm not sure what you meant to say here...perhaps that people don't like to listen to suggestions about God in music (or more particularly that you do not)...which is a VERY limited view of what makes music "Christian"...it is rather insightful to read your thougths on this matter, A.L.
I am very glad that you appreciate Andy's music...because it is deeply Christian...and highly crafted art.
AO,
The words drip like.........very drippy words. I had to repost on my myspace and my blog. I posted and got 2 phone calls within 10 minutes to discuss what you wrote. Others have said enough. Thanks for turning inside out. -Mike
Andy:
I see that everyone else seems to be just agreeing with you so I will be the voice of dissent. The problem I have with what you have said about CCM is the same problem I have with Derek Webb when he criticizes CCM as "bad art". You are confusing art with preference. Some people prefer an abstract medium as a method of getting a point across. That is how I view your music. However, a realistic portrait is just as much art as a Picasso - it is just more direct. I would classify CCM as portrait art. I don't like all of it but I am not willing to throw the whole genre under the bus because of my preference. I think when folks like you and Derek do that, it makes you seem bitter and joyless. Do your own thing but don't begrudge the success of sappy artists like Stephen Curtis Chapman or Sandy Patti. I don't like them but there are folks who do.
As far as politics, your simplification of this war being about oil is very shallow. This war is about liberation, democracy and -mostly - disrupting terrorists over there so they don't make it over here. I have a freind who is in Afghanistan right now flying an attack helicopter. He starts every email with "Any terrorist attacks lately?" To emphasise that he is fighting them there so we don't have to go through any attacks like 9/11. I think to imply that these guys are there for oil is disrepectful to our troops and to our president. I would say the same thing if Bill CLinton were in office.
OK having said all that I still love you as a brother in Christ, AO. Derek too. I think there is room enough in the kingdom of Christ for political disagreements.
JJ