Thursday
Feb222007
No Man's Land, part 2
Thursday, February 22, 2007 at 12:15AM
Once again, let me say how much I love you people. I love that an actual discussion is being had, and that you don't all agree! If you haven't been around in a while I'm talking about my previous post and the comments that have followed.
In the meantime, the interview I mentioned last post has been put up, as has a review of my latest record The Morning. Here is the interview and here is the review.
I want to expound on a couple points brought in the above articles, as well as stuff I said last night. In no particular order, here are my thoughts, as always, open for discussion...
- Thanks to the bulk of you who advised and encouraged me to keep on doing what I'm doing. I appreciate that more than you know, and it's what I'll be doing.
- My big concern, however, is that people who might really like my music are turned off if they hear about me as a "christian artist". This is what the interviewer, A.L. Harper says, and it's why she wouldn't have done the interview had I been brought to her attention that way.
And she's right. Completely. I'm exactly the same way. I don't really listen to "christian" music, and if you give me some music to check out and you call it that, I probably won't listen to it. It carries with it a connotation of not being good, and of being music I won't like. That's a stereotype, but stereotypes don't spring up at random. They're hasty judgments based on previous experience, and while some are terribly wrong, they are also often accurate.
Most "christian" music I have heard, and believe me, I've heard more than most of you, will tend to be simplistic, preachy, poorly made and shallow. There are wonderful, incredible exceptions, but that's just what they are: exceptions. I've had enough experience to know that, as a genre, "christian" music rarely affects me and often offends me.
There are two major problems with a genre defined not even by lyrical content but by the religious belief of the artist. One is that the content has to be very surface-y to cover a wide variety of actual beliefs. Secondly, it makes great assumptions on the artist's purpose and allegiances.
Most people assume that "christian" music is evangalistic, meaning its a means to an end to convert people. And most people would, historically, be right. Until very recently that was the main goal of the genre.
Most people then also assume that the artist is pro-life, voted for the Bush family, has perfect kids (who will soon rebel) and that they don't drink, smoke or watch R movies. And again, they may be right. Sometimes. But not all the time. Just like any other group in any situation, people are people, and they are all incredibly unique and will continue to surprise you with what they think.
This broad canvas over every artist who professes this certain faith implies so much, and I don't want that, and that's what I want to know how to be rid of.
Hear me now: I am not ashamed to believe in Jesus. I am ashamed of Pat Robertson hijacking my faith for his crazy political agenda. I am ashamed of a President who confuses good vs. evil with "they have oil and I want it". I am ashamed of Jerry Falwell and Benny Hinn. I called Bruce Wilkinson, author of The Prayer of Jabez, a liar and a crook to his face. I would do it again today. Because he, like these other guys, is taking what I believe and twisting it for money and for power and, in their headline-grabbing foolishness, making the truly faithful and honest believers look like idiots.
This is the main reason I am scared of "christian" music. I don't want to listen to it, because I assume it will be shallow, preachy and offensive to those who don't agree. I don't want to be called it, because I like my music and I want others to hear it, without the Left Behind-reading, Harry Potter-burning stigma.
BUT I'm here, so what do I do?
ALSO there is a great need for the Church to overcome this negative image. The links I posted last night to Dalit Freedom, Compassion, Blood:Water are what we should be seeing. I wish that the image people thought of when they thought of Christianity was feeding the poor and freeing the oppressed instead of picketing gay-rights parades.
That is the main reason I play for Caedmon's Call. They are a "christian" band, without a doubt. And they're doing amazing things for the people in India, and they're getting the Church involved, using music to get in the door. That, to me, is incredibly worthwhile.
So I'm left with this: I don't want to play "christian" music if it means I'm expected to believe and act one way and only that one way. I don't want to NOT play "christian" music if it means I have to do the same thing with an opposite set of rules. I guess I stay where I am and make the best music I'm able.
But I don't want to just "let the chips fall where they may". Again, I have a wife and two very adorable little girls to care for. And I would like my music to have a bigger, wider audience. Suggestions? Opinions? Further discussion?
In the meantime, the interview I mentioned last post has been put up, as has a review of my latest record The Morning. Here is the interview and here is the review.
I want to expound on a couple points brought in the above articles, as well as stuff I said last night. In no particular order, here are my thoughts, as always, open for discussion...
- Thanks to the bulk of you who advised and encouraged me to keep on doing what I'm doing. I appreciate that more than you know, and it's what I'll be doing.
- My big concern, however, is that people who might really like my music are turned off if they hear about me as a "christian artist". This is what the interviewer, A.L. Harper says, and it's why she wouldn't have done the interview had I been brought to her attention that way.
And she's right. Completely. I'm exactly the same way. I don't really listen to "christian" music, and if you give me some music to check out and you call it that, I probably won't listen to it. It carries with it a connotation of not being good, and of being music I won't like. That's a stereotype, but stereotypes don't spring up at random. They're hasty judgments based on previous experience, and while some are terribly wrong, they are also often accurate.
Most "christian" music I have heard, and believe me, I've heard more than most of you, will tend to be simplistic, preachy, poorly made and shallow. There are wonderful, incredible exceptions, but that's just what they are: exceptions. I've had enough experience to know that, as a genre, "christian" music rarely affects me and often offends me.
There are two major problems with a genre defined not even by lyrical content but by the religious belief of the artist. One is that the content has to be very surface-y to cover a wide variety of actual beliefs. Secondly, it makes great assumptions on the artist's purpose and allegiances.
Most people assume that "christian" music is evangalistic, meaning its a means to an end to convert people. And most people would, historically, be right. Until very recently that was the main goal of the genre.
Most people then also assume that the artist is pro-life, voted for the Bush family, has perfect kids (who will soon rebel) and that they don't drink, smoke or watch R movies. And again, they may be right. Sometimes. But not all the time. Just like any other group in any situation, people are people, and they are all incredibly unique and will continue to surprise you with what they think.
This broad canvas over every artist who professes this certain faith implies so much, and I don't want that, and that's what I want to know how to be rid of.
Hear me now: I am not ashamed to believe in Jesus. I am ashamed of Pat Robertson hijacking my faith for his crazy political agenda. I am ashamed of a President who confuses good vs. evil with "they have oil and I want it". I am ashamed of Jerry Falwell and Benny Hinn. I called Bruce Wilkinson, author of The Prayer of Jabez, a liar and a crook to his face. I would do it again today. Because he, like these other guys, is taking what I believe and twisting it for money and for power and, in their headline-grabbing foolishness, making the truly faithful and honest believers look like idiots.
This is the main reason I am scared of "christian" music. I don't want to listen to it, because I assume it will be shallow, preachy and offensive to those who don't agree. I don't want to be called it, because I like my music and I want others to hear it, without the Left Behind-reading, Harry Potter-burning stigma.
BUT I'm here, so what do I do?
ALSO there is a great need for the Church to overcome this negative image. The links I posted last night to Dalit Freedom, Compassion, Blood:Water are what we should be seeing. I wish that the image people thought of when they thought of Christianity was feeding the poor and freeing the oppressed instead of picketing gay-rights parades.
That is the main reason I play for Caedmon's Call. They are a "christian" band, without a doubt. And they're doing amazing things for the people in India, and they're getting the Church involved, using music to get in the door. That, to me, is incredibly worthwhile.
So I'm left with this: I don't want to play "christian" music if it means I'm expected to believe and act one way and only that one way. I don't want to NOT play "christian" music if it means I have to do the same thing with an opposite set of rules. I guess I stay where I am and make the best music I'm able.
But I don't want to just "let the chips fall where they may". Again, I have a wife and two very adorable little girls to care for. And I would like my music to have a bigger, wider audience. Suggestions? Opinions? Further discussion?
Reader Comments (79)
shawn first posted the word that your comments have seemed to demand:"reformation". Dang it, its time!
don't abandon, purify, purge, and redifine.
viva la reformation!
I completly agree with Jason.
right on man.
I am just wondering . . . is "worship" music considered part of this low-quality CCM? The only reason I ask is because while, yes, I do believe that most Christian artists are "singing to the choir," I also think a goal of these artists should be to provide an outlet - a means of worship - for Christians. I think some music needs to be purely Christian music for that fan base or whatever you want to call it, as a means to get in touch with God and really worship him. Don't get me wrong - my 3 favorite artists are AO, Mat Kearney, and Billy Joel because I so enjoy the fusion of the GOOD lyrics and GOOD music, but at the same time, sometimes it is nice just to throw in the CD player a worship mix of less intellectually-stimulating music.
I agree with Jason when he says that it is a matter of preference . . . there are people who can connect to that so-called "washed out" kind of CCM. Sure, there are the people who only listen to music because it is labeled Christian, but there are also those who really gain something from it, who really feel God speaks to them through that kind of music. To write it off so easily seems to write off those people. This doesn't seem right because we have to face it, everyone's relationship with God (and how that relationship is maintained/created) is different. We can't automatically assume that just because these people like that kind of music, or produce that kind of music, means they are any less in terms of believers. It's all a matter of intentions. Sure, there are a lot of CCM artists out there making way more money than they know what to do with, or could use. Of course, I don't agree with the CCM artists who take advantage of fans as well, finding it ok to produce so-so music just because they know that someone will buy it (and that South Park episode that was mentioned before comes to mind, because that was exactly Cartman's reasoning for becoming a Christian artist - he already had a fanbase of millions of Americans).
I do think there are a lot of changes that need to happen in the Christian community at large in terms of how we are perceived and also how we perceive ourselves (a.k.a. getting off our holier-than-thou pedestals). However, I also don't think we should target someone just because we don't like their personal preference of music. I don't think I am any less of a Christian because I prefer Andy or Mat over someone like Stephen Curtis; however, I am also not a better one because of that either.
Also, and, ok, well this is a completely 180 from my previous paragraphs, but why is it that music artists who are Christians but not necessarily "Christian artists" struggle with what Andy is talking about, and yet there seems to be less difficulty with this for writers? I am thinking along the lines of C.S. Lewis, J.R.R. Tolkien, Madeline L'Engle . . . writers who are not necessarily categorized as "Christian" writers (Lewis maybe an acception, but even still his Chronicles of Narnia are still hot stuff outside the Christian market) yet whose message of Christianity is still prevalent in their work - and who are accepted for it. It just seems to be a bit of a contradiction to me, and maybe it is because the music industry is much more commercialized than the book industry.
"sometimes it is nice just to throw in the CD player a worship mix of less intellectually-stimulating music."
gotta say, emily, worship music (especially the hymns) is by far the most mentally stimulating stuff to me...
In reference to Jason's comment...
My immediate thought was "yeah, I agree...art is a matter of preference". But the more i thought about it, the more I came to disagree. Sure some people like certain types of art more than others, but I don't think that's the point
art is supposed to be self expression. if all of these "Christian artist" can truthfully tell me that the songs they sing are honest and sincere writings about the way they feel, then i'll buy it (figuratively). However how many songs do you hear on the Christian radio that deal with anything other than praising and worshiping God all the time (and smiling about it). There's no soul searching, gut wrenching lyrical content. Only watered down, skin deep "feel good" stuff. And in my opinion that art sells because people don't like to think about reality. they don't want to be challenged. the fact that people prefer a certian kind of music, doesn't make it good art...it doesn't even make it true art in my opinion
there's this term i use- "the worship blender", which means a song that takes a bunch of words and phrases from another song or groups of songs, shuffles them around and puts a new melody to it. That in my opinion isn't art. I'm not sure what it is, but it's not art and that's what a lot of songs are in CCM today.
There's that saying that "art imitates life", but in the case of CCM it's more like "art imitates fake life".
*Dave braces himself for the onslaught of disagreement*
PS: this post does focus on stereotypes completely...however I think there's some truth to the stereotype.
I agree with Dave greatly.
Study to show yourself approved. No more thin music or lryics. I will march on Washington if you guys will!
JM
Andrew,
The only thing I can think of say is...Amen brother.
Keep up the good work.
John Mark
A,
I think I understand to some degree the complication with your art and its place in the community at large. I more fully understand the systematic commodification of art and what is more disturbing the systematic commodification of religous art. (Which is not simply buying or selling art, but systematically reducing the meaning of art in society to its dollar value in the market.)
Because we live in a society that views art in terms of supply and demand economics, it becomes increasingly difficult to apply any other structured meaning to what we do as artists. It leaves us with very little purpose with which to define what we do. It also creates desperation and ,albeit, depression in an artist when trying to make such a comparison between market art and symbolic art because symbolic art becomes uber-relative and market art rarely qualifies as true human experience.
What I want to know A, is not where you fit in this system or even the broad community but what is it that you are doing?
What does your art mean to you? Why do you do what you do?
What place should art have in society in general? and then how can we sustain true art within the culture that we have?
I know these are huge questions but you have hit on something very near and dear to me and I would love to hear your opinion.
Thanks!
David
For clarification, what are we all using as our definition of Christian Music? Music with evangelistic purposes? Music that mentions Jesus? Music made by a professing Christian? For me, since my "Christian" band broke up (I know, that seems to be everyone on here) I've all but abandoned that terminology. A wiser person than myself said to me, "There are really two classifications of music: Sacred music and Fluff." Sacred captures meaning, expresses worldview, creates dialogue, etc. Fluff entertains, sells a billion records, and makes fat men rich." I've met guys making quite a bit of bank off Christian songs they wrote, but will readily admit are "fluff." Ultimately, if they can sleep at night, then I guess they can go on. If they are convicted about it, then they should stop. What does that mean for artists like yourself, Osenga? Live your conviction, man. I appreciate you giving me the chance to throw my thoughts out, but you're the one who has to live with how you use the amazing talents and passions God has given you. (On a selfish note, though, I am hoping you won't start pitching songs for a new Phillips, Craig, and Dean album).
I was just driving home from work and I couldn’t shake this conversation from my mind. The last few years I have grown very cynical toward the CCM industry. The reason for this is because it is an “industry�. Christ was not commercial! He died so that we could be holy and pure in his sight through grace. He died so that the Holy Spirit could indwell us. Through this we can now have communion 24/7. Everything that Christ was about was relational.
That being said----Christendom today does not embody what I feel Christ was about. I feel that we try so hard to emulate spirituality that we lose focus on just being genuine. CCM radio does not feel genuine to me. It feels too perfect. The music and lyrics seem to good to be true. The artists seem one step behind whatever is popular in the secular realm. I can’t stand hearing a Christian form of Nickelback on the local CCM station. This just proves that the industry is just trying to imitate the secular scene. They need ratings and an audience so they give us what they think pop America wants. If this was what Jesus was about he would have risen an army and delivered the Jews from Roman oppression instead of dieing on the cross.
I feel that we are afraid to be genuine. I think that we need to look perfect to feel perfect. I feel that CCM is commercial not relational. Square Peg music gives me hope that music can be relational. They show me that God wants to hear my doubts, my love interests, my stupidity, my hunger, my lust, and my hopes. He wants to heal us when we are broken. He wants to put us together when we fall apart. I get none of this out of the CCM industry. I have listened to the music and read the books, but they don’t cry out that they want to be my friend. They don’t give me inspiration or revelation. Therefore I listen and support those who are honest enough to show me who they are through their music. I honestly see people like AO reaching out for community and relationship. This makes me proud to support believers who make music no matter what the content might be.
I am sorry if this makes no sense at all. Also I tried to use “I� statements. This is just what I feel.
In addition to the last post, I'd say that I often feel that when a contemporary Christian song attempts to deal with struggles such as doubt, fear, etc, it most often comes of sounding forced and unconvincing. Maybe it's the production, maybe it's my own cynical bias; I'm not sure. Case in point: Some song the other day was talking about a person struggling with doubt and the chorus ended up being some cheesy "Just hold on," thing that made it sound more like a Dr. Phil moment with the obligatory Christian jargon/buzz words.
Dave said:
"However how many songs do you hear on the Christian radio that deal with anything other than praising and worshiping God all the time (and smiling about it)."
I think you hit on something here. Radio is a major factor. Radio playability is a factor, and no artist (Christian, secular, bigtime, indie) can get around that. Ask AO what the labels ask artists to do to good songs in order to get them on the air.
Now, I guess you could almost say that if an entire album is worthy of CCM airplay, then the artistry is probably pretty low by the standards of many of us discussing here. But don't forget there are some great songs that never see the airwaves. dcTalk is the first one that pops to mind, with songs like "What If I Stumble" and "What Have We Become" and the "Hardway."
I think both you and Jason have made great points, which is what makes this discussion so intriguing.
tim
No one has mentioned Casting Crowns in any of the comments. Some of their lyrics hit hard and deep and have had a profound effect on many people. Am I off base here?
All it would take to see true change come about in this "industry" is for those of us who are passionate about it to step up. Those artists who are trying to break free from the industry and do it their way need help. Spiritual help, financial help and encouragement to keep going. All of us have done that in some form or another, just by being here. Word of mouth is huge. Helping them get shows booked is even more huge.
And I have to pipe in here on one thing that has been bugging me all day. I get the idea that there is a giant "us" and "them" line drawn somewhere that divides those too smart and discerning to listen to CCM stuff from those too simple to know better. If there is such a line, then I have one foot firmly planted on each side. I am thankful to actually call some of these square peg folks (and others like them) my friend. And I will continue to do what I can to help them get their music heard. My husband and I have thousands of CD's from every genre you can name. For real. But I still get some enjoyment from the "bad art" some of you reference. Call me shallow or simple or whatever you wish, but I'm not going to apologize for it. Granted, there are so many things I can't stand about KLOVE and stations like it. . And it would be so easy to look down on folks who don't seem to get that there is a whole different world of music out there that they don't even know about. What I do, instead, is sign up on the KLOVE listener survey team and once a month I totally ream them for playing the same music every minute of the day. I list names. I write whole paragraphs. I beg them to play folks like AO, and Jeremy Casella and Justin McRoberts, knowing full well that they have never even heard these people's names. But I do it anyway. And if you're still reading, Shawn, I list your name, too. :) I tell them that I am the person they are marketing to. I fit the "Becky" description to the letter. And I make it very clear that "Becky" is sick and tired of Jeremy Camp. She wants more. And if she doesn't get what she wants, she is smart enough to get an ipod and move on. Yes, there is a lot of garbage out there. I get that. And I, for one, am doing what I can to make it better.
On a different note, I have to say that this community has surprised me. I kind of expected to be viciously ripped apart by other members who disagreed w/ my post. There are those who disagree but it has been done in a very loving, openminded fashion. THAT is exactly what I mean by "room in the Kingdom for disagreement". I love this blog.
You know, I think about this from time to time, and I guess where I get a bit miffed is that, when you ask yourself, "What artists are open about their religious leanings and seem to be serious about it but are not in the CCM bubble?" ... well, the only person that I ever seem to come up with is, "U2, especially Bono." Of course, there have to be a lot more folks than that, but I guess the big thing is that there's just not a lot of room in that for the marketplace. I think a lot of that is because our society is set up to view people who make public professions of faith quite cynically ... and I guess when I read the Sermon on the Mount, I get that.
I've been thinking about what makes your music different than a lot of what I hear, Andy, I guess that the big thing I find is the thematic push for redemption and examination of brokenness without being all Jesus-y. And honestly, even for non-Christians, redemption and critical self-examination can be themes that we want to explore through music and see commercial success; as an Elliott Smith fan, I know that I have an appreciation for his work through how he flayed himself open through his music. But where you differ, Andy, seems to be that you want to talk about redemption and forgiveness---themes certainly infused with your faith---in the language of everyday folk. And that's what works for me.
the coffeehouse/venue that i help run, that you are playing at in march, sort of has the same problems you do. we are run by christians, so immediately when someone finds that out they ask us if we are a "christian" coffeehouse. we usually say that our coffee is neither christian nor non-christian, just caffeinated or de-caf.
we have had gay & lesbian groups, planned parenthood groups and others come in and speak and tell us their stories. because of that many people who believe we are a "christian" coffeehouse do not agree with us because of that.
in the end, we just do what we believe to be true of Jesus and love others as ourself. we are learning what it means to "love your neighbor"
anyway, i think you are doing a great job. and you and your blog encourages our community more than you realize.
Christian Music = Music created by Christians primarily for consumption by Christians.
Someone asked. That's what it actually is, maybe not what you or I think it should be - what it IS.
Brenda,
I wholeheartedly agree with your post.
Good art, bad art, etc - subjective... one man's trash is another man's hit record.
Shaun's definition of Christian music above pretty much hits it on the head. And I don't have any problem with Christians creating music primarily for the consumption of other Christians - I don't think that's the issue here.
Rather... if I can try to sum it up... in my experience, the issue is that a certain percentage (I won't put a number on it as it'd just be something I'm pulling out of the air) of the Christian artists and/or Christian music audience seem convinced that if Christians make music for consumption by anyone OTHER THAN other Christians, they're "selling out".
In reality, IMHO, many end up making quasi-evangelistic music that is developed, recorded, and marketed in a manner that appeals solely (for the most part) to the converted... and are critical of any Christian artists who seek to reach a wider audience.
I think that's what I hear Andy struggling with here, anyway... I struggled with it too.
I started another long post but decided against... instead... it's over at my little blog.
www.miwat.blogspot.com
Let me see if I have your stance: "Wow, folks I've got credibility because I once called a famous Christian author a liar to his face, which of course shows how bold and highminded my own faith is. That's why I keep bringing up that incident, because my bold bashing of famous Chrsitians helps me feel more credible to the audience I want to target with my music. "
Or something like that.
I play music because I love it! I write songs because every once in awhile they come to me! I love Wilco and Death Cab, but I also love Rascal Flatts. Why? Because I can! People like what they want. It's our free-will. You can't make a cat become a dog! No matter how well you debate with it!
I love Steven Curtis Chapman! I used to listen to him when I was a kid, and when I hear one of his older songs, it takes me back. Just like Steve Winwood's "Back in the High Life", because my Dad used to listen to that song, and when I hear it, it makes me think about those times.
I'm all for songs that make you think, but sometimes it's good to shut off your mind. There are days that I don't need to hear about pain and rejection, because I deal with those day in and day out. Maybe I need to hear something simple like, "Jesus Loves Me"
The few people that actually like my songs, could care less about my political views, my love life, my family, what religion I am, what church I go to, and etc. What they care about is that for a brief moment a word or a chord or a melody came and touched their heart!
there are christian artists out there whose music is really intended for christians..
examples are Building 429,Fighting Instinct,Tobymac,Steven Curtis Chapman,and a whole lot of worship stuff...
i don't consider them bad art. infact i can relate to them (especially B429's space in between us)..
regarding worship music, not all of them are bad but sad to say,most of 'em are...
speaking of simple soing like jesus loves me,i can only think of one version that keeps playing in my head, BOBBY PINSON's.