Tuesday
Feb202007
No Man's Land
Tuesday, February 20, 2007 at 11:30AM
So here's another one up for discussion. In the past few weeks I've had a number of interesting happenings regarding the intersection of my faith and my music.
- I had a show cancelled at a club because they found out I was a "christian artist".
- I had a show cancelled at a christian college because this site links to a brewery.
- I did an interview for a major music blog and was told later that if it was known I was a "christian artist" the interview would not have happened. The interviewer is an atheist with some painful history of organized religion. We also hit it off and had a wonderful conversation which I think we'll continue.
If you've come to this site for very long you've probably realized that A) I'm a Christian and B) I never talk about christian music. I don't talk about it because, for the most part, I really don't like it. I think, in a lot of ways, it does a disservice to both music and christianity.
The problem is, when I was 18 and moved to Nashvile to sign a "christian" record contract I didn't know you could be a Christian and still play regular music. So I didn't. I played "christian" music until my band broke up and I burned out on pretty much everything about Christianity.
I have made every one of my solo records without regard to the weird creature of "christian" music. I just made them for me. But I can't shake this CCM thing. My solo records show up under "inspirational" on iTunes.
On the other hand, some Christian colleges and venues have reacted to things I've posted on here and made it harder for me to get in there. It seems both sides have expectations that limit and constrict. One side talks about "being true to yourself" while the other speaks of "freedom" yet when I exercise my freedom to be myself, I find that I don't fit in very neatly with either side.
I know it seems like I'm complaining, but I don't mean to. I just don't know where I fit in, and I don't know how to change that. Do you have ideas? Have you seen ways other artists have successfully navigated this stuff? Am I asking the wrong questions? Do you think I should just pick a side and stick with it? Going full-on mainstream would mean starting over in a lot of ways, and I can barely support my family now. Does that mean I'm selling out? These are the thoughts that continually circle around in my brain. I trust you guys. You know me. I'd love your thoughts.
P.S. I want to say, also, that there are some truly wonderful things happening with Christian artists that would probably not be the same without the support of the church. Things like Blood:Water mission, Dalit Freedom Network and Compassion International. I am so proud to play a small part in what these organizations do, and its one of the reasons that playing in churches and Christian places is really rewarding and powerful.
- I had a show cancelled at a club because they found out I was a "christian artist".
- I had a show cancelled at a christian college because this site links to a brewery.
- I did an interview for a major music blog and was told later that if it was known I was a "christian artist" the interview would not have happened. The interviewer is an atheist with some painful history of organized religion. We also hit it off and had a wonderful conversation which I think we'll continue.
If you've come to this site for very long you've probably realized that A) I'm a Christian and B) I never talk about christian music. I don't talk about it because, for the most part, I really don't like it. I think, in a lot of ways, it does a disservice to both music and christianity.
The problem is, when I was 18 and moved to Nashvile to sign a "christian" record contract I didn't know you could be a Christian and still play regular music. So I didn't. I played "christian" music until my band broke up and I burned out on pretty much everything about Christianity.
I have made every one of my solo records without regard to the weird creature of "christian" music. I just made them for me. But I can't shake this CCM thing. My solo records show up under "inspirational" on iTunes.
On the other hand, some Christian colleges and venues have reacted to things I've posted on here and made it harder for me to get in there. It seems both sides have expectations that limit and constrict. One side talks about "being true to yourself" while the other speaks of "freedom" yet when I exercise my freedom to be myself, I find that I don't fit in very neatly with either side.
I know it seems like I'm complaining, but I don't mean to. I just don't know where I fit in, and I don't know how to change that. Do you have ideas? Have you seen ways other artists have successfully navigated this stuff? Am I asking the wrong questions? Do you think I should just pick a side and stick with it? Going full-on mainstream would mean starting over in a lot of ways, and I can barely support my family now. Does that mean I'm selling out? These are the thoughts that continually circle around in my brain. I trust you guys. You know me. I'd love your thoughts.
P.S. I want to say, also, that there are some truly wonderful things happening with Christian artists that would probably not be the same without the support of the church. Things like Blood:Water mission, Dalit Freedom Network and Compassion International. I am so proud to play a small part in what these organizations do, and its one of the reasons that playing in churches and Christian places is really rewarding and powerful.
Reader Comments (71)
I’ll probably get flamed for this one…
Ever see the South Park where Cartman starts a Christian band? The whole premise is that Christian bands don't have to be very good; they just have to sing about Jesus, and Christians will buy it up in droves.
Until Cartman acted like Cartman and dropped some F-bombs, then all their fans left.
To some degree, IMHO, South Park hit the nail pretty close to the head on that one.
After all the time I spent in the Christian music industry, I guess I am a bit cynical about the whole thing. It is a tough road to navigate from many levels.
It’s certainly not all about ministry. Not that the artists don’t have good intentions. But it’s a business, with big companies making big money who do not particularly care about whether or not ministry is taking place.
In my own experience, at the end of the day, playing Christian music in Christian venues was largely an exercise in preaching to the converted. I don’t know how many “outreach� events we played at where a local church would invite a bunch of Christian bands, then wonder why only church kids showed up.
I find it troubling when a Christian band decides to work with a “secular� label, or play in “secular venues� and then gets reamed by Christians for doing it. We took a bunch of heat for playing in the clubs in Hollywood – the Whisky, the Roxy, etc – people said we were selling out, casting pearls before swine, etc.
First off, there’s nowhere near as much money to be made playing in clubs as there is in churches… and secondly… more people met Jesus when we played in those venues than ever did in churches. “Making it� as a secular band is much tougher than making it in the CCM market. Christian bands have huge crowds built in if they tour the church circuit. People don’t necessarily come to hear the band… they come to church… and the band is there. Secular bands don’t get that built-in crowd.
All that said – you asked a few questions…
Re: other artists navigating this… well, my old band actually re-launched as a “secular� band called Fin. You can check out their site at www.fincity.net. I guess Switchfoot also comes to mind as a band that wrestled with this. To some degree, MuteMath does too – couple guys in that band used to be in a group called Earthsuit that was marketed to the CCM crowd.
Re: are you selling out if you cross over…? Again, I’ll get flamed for this, but I don’t think so. IMHO… singing evangelical tunes to a mostly Christian audience feels a lot more like selling out than “going secular� does – to me, anyway.
Just one man’s opinion… which is not worth much… I have a desk job now, so I certainly wouldn’t take any advice from me on the music business… ;-)
i wonder whether u hate the christian music as it is or just the industry. because if u say u dont have anything to do with christian music,then why make a record like postcards and the morning? or be in a band called caedmon's call?
maybe its the industry... i mean i think every thinking people hate music industry,christian or not. i mean i read a lot of people who hate the country music industry and even the grammy...and yes,dixie chicks proclaimed few months or years back that they don't want anything to do with country music. but still if u listen to the new cd,u can still hear country inflouence...
mike
My only qualm with secular, Christian musicians is with those folks who deliberately hide their faith to remain "secular." This crosses a spiritual line that no amount of money or success can compensate for.
Brooke - I hear you... but what does "hiding their faith" mean?
Was I hiding my faith just as much when my band only played in churches?
Sure, we sang about Jesus - to people that knew Him. And got paid well to do it.
Andy --
You're right I did say I wouldn't have interviewed you if I had known. No serious mainstream music journalist would have (and it doesn't have anything to do with my painful past *smile*). Or if they did, that would have been their focus. I'm glad I didn't know and got to know you. And I hope we do keep it up.
You never asked how I didn't know. Well, because all I had was your album and your official bio. You do not make Christian music. You make excellent, fun music and I like it very much.
I have read most of the posts and I must say I have nothing to offer. I am in the same boat that you are---I will say though that I played at a bar the other night and it felt the same as a youth lock-in I played last month. In both places I sold CD's and had positive response.
Like I said I don't have much to offer. If you get the answers please let me know!===but mainly I don't care anymore. People will listen or they won't. People will get it or they won't.
Keep being real---
P.S. I like this A.L. Harper guy.
A.L. is a girl, just so you know. She's the one I did the interview with. I'll post the interview link in a little bit....
(oh, and you should like her. She's very cool.)
I don't really know what I can add to the 51 previous comments that others have listed, but I wanted to say something...
Andy, I was in a similar situation as yours, except on a smaller scale. I was in a band through high school and college, and we were a very serious independent band. All of the members wanted to play music for a living, and we were determined that we were headed in that direction. We also were the kind of band that rode the line between christian and secular, wanting to write songs from a faith based perspective, but not wanting to come off as a "Christian" band.
I know first hand that this is an incredibly hard place to be, but my favorite artists broke free of these labels and wrote spiritual songs from a secular perspective....Emmylou Harris, Bob Dylan, Buddy and Julie Miller, Nickel Creek, U2, Gillian Welch, Over the Rhine, and Patty Griffin are great examples...
And I think there is nothing wrong with loathing the CCM industry. I feel the same exact way about it. There is a lot of sappy, shallow music out there that exploit the name of Christianity for the sake of a money. And also, many of the CCM stuff that is being put out these days is just plain BAD art.
I also think someone's perception of certain things comes from where they've been in life... People that have struggled with drinking in their lives are usually hard lined tee totalers. The pendulum usually swings the other way. I know I used to struggle a lot with senstionalism in church and now I've found that the type of church that suits me is something highly intellectual. I don't like the sensational stuff because I got caught up in it so much.
I think that you (and myself as well) being burned by all that is out there in the Christian Music Industry left a sour taste in your mouth, and that could have to do with an extreme dislike. That combined with the exploitation and bad art! :) And no offense to those of you who don't agree with this last post, but you don't know what he's been through in terms of his faith. I know that things hit you HARD when you are naive and innocent, which is how I was when starting to play music. There are politics that you see people getting involved in and when money comes in to play, Christians don't always act like Christians. It can potentially ruin someone's faith. I know from my experience with detachment from the church and constant struggle (that's still there) with doubt...
I'm a huge fan of "Walking on Water: Reflections on Faith and Art", by Madeleine L'Engle. This book is incredible and deals with how art and faith are intertwined. And Andy, keep making the kind of music that you are...There are plently of secular artists and plenty of "Christian" artists, but artists like you really are a dime a dozen. You might never be a huge as the Beatles, but you will be able to say that you were true to yourself, that you write songs that you believe in, and that you have "true" fans that listen to what you say.
Here's a comforting quote from a great movie I recently watched...
"My father was very sure about certain matters pertaining to the universe. To him, all good things, trout as well as eternal salvation, came by grace and grace comes by art, and art does not come easy." -Norman Maclean, A River Runs Through It
Hope it someday makes sense,
chriscarr
Great thoughts, Chriscarr... I guess my CCM experience really shapes my thoughts on all this. The only deal we ever got offered in Nashville (from Organic Records) was a whopping 1% of retail (after they re-couped all their costs), and they would own all of our publishing royalties, and the masters. Not much ministry there...
"You do not make Christian music."
I would humbly disagree. While Andy's music is not church style worship music, or bland retread CCM garbage (barf)...his love of God bleeds into his art making it obvious for one with the "eyes to see" to identify as God loving.
I wonder what A.L. means when she says this...or why "No serious mainstream music journalist would have" taken Andy's music seriously...seems a tad presumptuous to assume that music with religious undertones could not rival other non-religious musical art.
I just wanted to clear up a few misconceptions. Christian music is music that has accepted Jesus into its heart. A handy measure of whether music is Christian or not is the JPM (Jesus per minute) count. It has nothing to do with profit or industry. Christian music should have its own section of a music store and should not be held to musical creative stadards.
Additionally, music created by Christians should not be taken seriously by mainstream music critics. The fact that they are writing songs about their Christian faith is grounds for disregarding any musical skill or innovation they bring to their "craft". If any mainstream musical artist decides to make some proclamation of Christian faith, he or she must be relegated to the Christian music grotto. A good measure for whether music is acceptable for the mainstream audience is the JPM count. Mainstream listeners do not want to have Christianity forced upon them. It is acceptable however, if any other religion is being propagated, and is actually somewhat brave and should be admired.
Bo,
No serious, mainstream, music journalist would take Christian music seriously for one reason. The bulk of it is corn-fed, watered down, straight-off-the-tractor, comb-in-the-mouth, artistically barren music. It's bland and boring and not many people like to be preached at. If that's what you're into then go for it. I and most others, are not.
Stevehoose,
I wouldn't want to hear ANY religion preach at me through song. And if they did I wouldn't take them seriously. Christian music is more than just letting your love of god come through in your music it is preaching in song. And that is one of the qualities that make it so bland. Christian music is about the promotion of Christianity and Andrew’s album is not.
Andy-
"Time is a slow sword that can pierce any armor."
don't sweat it man. just keep doing what you are doing and let the 2 people who gave you crap go their own way.
"They have no power over you now..."
"For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe." I Cor. 1:21
Andy, I don't know the "Christian Music Industry" like you, or probably a bunch of people on here do. So, my comments are related to the music itself, not how it is marketed, or who the producer is. What I do know is that I've never found anything more worth singing about than Him.
Though there are a ton of interesting ideas floating around here, I actually am hoping AL Harper is still reading the responses because I want to ask a question. As an aspiring journalist just about to graduate from college, I am impressed at your ability to turn a phrase (I loved "Andrew’s tangled tapestry of sound and lyric paints an ardent, stirring picture"). I was wondering about some of your comments though. How do we decide what music is about the promotion of Christianity or not? If it doesnt have the appropriate number of mentions of Jesus's name, does that make it not Christian music? Though I share your distain for a lot of "Christian" music, I still think that there is a lot of good stuff out there. Most good music is honest music (which is why I think we both share an appreciation for Andrew Osenga music, in addition to the obvious music talent). If someone who is a "Christian" artist, whether in CCM or independent, write a solid, talented song, does it immediately get written off because of the label that pays that person's bills or the type of people who buy the record? That seems to strike me as unfair and not an intelligent analysis. Music, like novels, can be interpreted any number of ways and I think we interpret them through our respective world views. While you saw House of Mirrors as being about a "man trying to find a way past her defences", I heard it as a man trying to find his way back to God. I dont know which one is the way it was meant to be, but I dont see either as being a wrong or bad way of interpreting the song. Sorry if this is kind of rambling but I had one last question/point. You said that "Christian music is about the promotion of Christianity" and it was said as if that was a negative thing. I understand how that is certainly something you may not agree with but why is that any different from a musician promoting any cause? If someone believes passionately about something, shouldnt they promote it in their music in some way or another? I mean, Green Day and U2 did a song to promote the rebuilding of New Orleans, Dixie Chicks and Pink use their music to make political or social statements, and I am sure there are a host of other musicians out there who use their music to make a statement. I dont see anything wrong with that, whether or not I agree with their statements. I dont know, just some thoughts. I am not trying to start a public argument, they are just some thoughts (if you want to email me personally, chrisrule87@hotmail.com). I have really enjoyed reading others entries and have been challenged by reading them. In response to the original subject of the blog, Andy, you are making phenomenal music. I dont know if you will ever "hit it big" (fingers crossed, I hope you do cause you got the talent) but I dont think you should change simply to please other people. In the end, you have God and yourself to answer to, not these other people. So your decision lies there... as for me, as a fan, I simply hope you keep up the amazing CD's.
You are a Christian that makes music. And good music. I agree with the people who post and say, "keep doing what you are doing." People at Christian colleges can be some of the most hypocritical people in the world. Trust me, I went to one.
Keep being AO and being true to yourself. The rest will come.
Smitty's a rock star.
I say go http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evanescence#Christian_controversy" rel="nofollow">Evanescence. That'll fix it.
Chris,
Thank you very much for the compliment. I appreciate and accept those wherever, and whenever I get them. As to your questions...
I agree that music, as with all art, is at the interpretation of the listener. You are Christian so when you listened to "House of Mirrors" you heard references to god. I am an atheist. I have no such bias so I saw it as a very beautiful love song about a woman. Why is that a problem? If I thought it was about a man "trying to find his way back to God" I would have lost interest and stopped listening.
Andrew is very obviously Christian and I have no problem with that. I also don't care if he is left-handed, or a vegetarian or wears glasses -- although, after seeing some of the PR shots he sent me, I do now care that he never grows that mop back, some men just look much better with short hair. Andrew weaves his Christian beliefs into the song without preaching them at me. He is simply making reference to them in the course of the story. He is not thumping a bible and telling me that if I just open my heart to Jesus I too can be as pure and perfect as he is. And that is what I get from most other Christian music. And I have been sent A LOT of it to listen to. And I stick by what I said. Most of it is not fit to listen to unless you are interested in the message. And I am not.
I don’t think promoting Christianity is a bad thing but it is promoting it to people who are already Christians. I just think that you are preaching to the choir and turning off the very people you want to touch. You’re not promoting it to me; it just leaves me feeling cold. All of my reactions to music are almost visceral, it’s almost instinctive. If I listen to music that is preaching at me about the beauty of God, I don’t feel good about that. I am left feeling disassociated, bored and at worst confrontational. And frankly that’s not what I am looking for in music. If I want to feel that way I can visit my mother. Andrew doesn’t do that. He isn’t using is Christianity like a club to beat me with, it’s simply part of him and therefore colours everything he sees and the way he interprets what happens around him. For instance, my favourite song on the album, “Dance Away the City� the lyrics “nothing but the eyes of god and a groom and a bride� he mentions God obviously, but does that make it a Christian song? No. It’s about a man who loves his wife very much. If that man feels the love of God shining down on them and blessing their union, I don’t have a problem with that, in fact I completely understand atheist or no. It doesn’t leave me feeling cold or confrontational. That song makes me long for a new partner in my life, something I haven’t wanted in a very long time. Andrew can actually write a song that isn’t about God or his faith. This makes him seem and feel MUCH more human. I can more easily identify with his music in that way. I don’t identify with music that is about loving god, or believing in Jesus because I don’t. I also wouldn’t identify with someone who sang about loving Allah or any other religious figure. Promote Christianity all you want. But know that you are singing to the choir.
I also want to say that when I was first reviewing albums I was sent an album by a band called The Afters. I was told they were Christian but trying to break into the mainstream. I wanted very much to give them a break. I didn’t think it was fair that they would struggle so much. But after listening to their album I realised that they were trying to be both full on Christian Rockers and mainstream artists. But I don’t think this is one genre where you can have a cross over artist. Their brand of rock music was generic and passionless. I felt nothing. It was like listening to John Denver with electric guitar. And since then I have listened to a lot of Christian music and I am surprised at how much of it sounds just exactly the same, almost without exception. And that is the reason no mainstream music journalist will take it seriously. And until the artists are allowed to be as controversial in their sound as mainstream artist are, Christian music won’t be taken seriously.
A.L. - wow, great thoughts there. Thanks for being so straightforward.
You've articulated exactly what bugs me about the Christian music scene. When I was in it... we had to make our music "Christian" enough so that the Christian audience wouldn't complain about it... but, in doing so, we produced music and lyrics that made no sense to anyone but the Christian listener.
So, when we began to just write about life (albeit from a Christian worldview) in the hopes of actually developing relationships with people who don't think the same way we do, our Christian fan base complained that we were "selling out".
I just don't get it. Using the music as a tool to convert people just was not effective. Using art as a tool to build relationships with people... that works. And not in the interest of converting them - I let God sort that out; I just try to show the same kind of love for people that Christ showed.
I'm not sure if anyone else has pointed out the obvious yet...but while all of us are having a jolly ole time kicking the mainstream CCM scene for being cookie cutter and passionless...let us also freely admit that almost ALL varieties music in the mainstream are just as bland and passionless. I mean turn on a radio if you dare!
"People at Christian colleges can be some of the most hypocritical people in the world"
Damn right! whenur down and need someone to talk to,instead of empathy,they'll judge u instead telling u you dont love God enough or pray enough...
Bo,ur right. not just on mainstream CCM but almost in all mainstream...imean look at the country music scene and these new rebels trying to keep their music real coz the industry is fucking up their system...