Wednesday
Nov302005
christian radio, part deux
Wednesday, November 30, 2005 at 01:08AM
Thanks everybody for jumping into the discussion from last night's post. The comments section is strong right there, and I love that. There have been some good thoughts and it's keeping me thinking. It's good for me.
So here's a continuation of the question based on a lot of your comments. Many of you said that you've stopped listening to christian radio, if you ever did. For the record, I am squarely in your camp there. So how do you find out about music from believers trapped in this industry? You found me, so you heard about us somewhere. Are there good alternate ways of finding music to encourage your faith? Are there places that could be good? To further dive in: do you look to resources outside of your community for development and encouragement in your faith, and if so, where and why? Sheer curiosity is asking, so feel free to take this wherever you desire.
Two quick side notes:
1. I am playing upright bass on Andy P's christmas tour for a song or two, something I haven't done since college, and I'm loving it. The tour starts Thursday, dates are over here <---, and you need to come see the show. Rehearsal was AMAZING today. I love playing these songs.
2. Jeff Irwin, who played bass on AP's Far Country tour as well as the bulk of my new record, just had a baby Saturday, a month earlier than due. Their baby boy, Israel, is healthy but tiny (4 lbs, 9 ozs) and his wife Amy is recovering well. He's having to travel a bit this season, and there is still healing and much rest needed, so you can keep them in your prayers.
So, yeah, feel free to keep the discussion going, and let me know your thoughts on this subject. It's great to hear from people who don't deal with this stuff for their livelihood, and I'm learning a lot from you guys. Take care, sleep well and I'll try to write more tomorrow.
So here's a continuation of the question based on a lot of your comments. Many of you said that you've stopped listening to christian radio, if you ever did. For the record, I am squarely in your camp there. So how do you find out about music from believers trapped in this industry? You found me, so you heard about us somewhere. Are there good alternate ways of finding music to encourage your faith? Are there places that could be good? To further dive in: do you look to resources outside of your community for development and encouragement in your faith, and if so, where and why? Sheer curiosity is asking, so feel free to take this wherever you desire.
Two quick side notes:
1. I am playing upright bass on Andy P's christmas tour for a song or two, something I haven't done since college, and I'm loving it. The tour starts Thursday, dates are over here <---, and you need to come see the show. Rehearsal was AMAZING today. I love playing these songs.
2. Jeff Irwin, who played bass on AP's Far Country tour as well as the bulk of my new record, just had a baby Saturday, a month earlier than due. Their baby boy, Israel, is healthy but tiny (4 lbs, 9 ozs) and his wife Amy is recovering well. He's having to travel a bit this season, and there is still healing and much rest needed, so you can keep them in your prayers.
So, yeah, feel free to keep the discussion going, and let me know your thoughts on this subject. It's great to hear from people who don't deal with this stuff for their livelihood, and I'm learning a lot from you guys. Take care, sleep well and I'll try to write more tomorrow.
Reader Comments (34)
Hey, this is Seth. You know, the guy you randomly run into in the church bathroom now and again.
For the record, I've been listening to your music since 1998 when you released your first Forefront album. Seems like the Christian music bar was set at least a little bit higher back then, even though your best work was yet to come ("Apron Full of Stains" and other selected tracks notwithstanding). Since then, a lot of the Christian artists I grew up loving have gone away or started putting out inferior work.
dc Talk is gone. Newsboys suck now. Audio Adrenaline seems to slowly be getting back on track with "Until My Heart Caves In". Third Day is somewhat maintaining. Caedmon's sagged for a bit, though "Share the Well" was a step back in the right direction. Even Jars of Clay is running out of steam (wish they'd strip it back down, you know?). Forefront went from a great alternative label to a crappy radio-pop label. Some of the other great Christian artists like Shaded Red (ever heard them?) never really took off.
This is going to sound bad, but I think the whole of Christian music really started going downhill when the big "worship fad" hit around 1999-2000. Everyone and their mom, dad, brother, sister, weird uncle, evil twin, and talking dog had to--just freaking HAD to--put out a worship album. And most of them had repetitive lyrics and undynamic melodies. It was a well-intentioned, though terribly misguided, bandwagon movement. And it was around the same time that Christian pop radio really took off. Let's face it...SonicFlood may have been the death of good Christian music.
Sorry for the meandering history lesson, but I very rarely get the chance to rant about Christian music. Point being, I still tune into Christian music on occasion. This morning I heard a great band called The Afters on WAY-FM. Mostly, though, I keep up with the good stuff by following specific artists (you, Derek Webb, AP, etc). Word of mouth is still a powerful tool. Grassrootsmusic.com is also good, because you can find independent artists on there and listen to sound clips and stuff. Good Christian music exists, and it's not impossible to find. We just need a revolution. Lead the way, Andy. I got your back.
P.S. I haven't run into you in the church bathroom for a couple weeks now.
P.P.S. Myspace is good for finding artists as well. Is "Marylin" going to be on the new record?
I agree with Seth! The worship music really left a lot of us hanging! The hard thing is that people now associate worship with music, when music is just an avenue for worship! You know, "if I don't get goosebumps, then it must not be God!"
A lot of bands now days seem to be putting out record after record! I feel that needs to stop! Most Independent Artist can't just do a record anytime, they have to write, tour, look for pennies and dimes under car seats, and do anything they can to do what they love........sometimes alone!
I am independent! I'm starting my second record tomorrow! It's been 3 years since my first! In that time, life has happened, songs have been written, some thrown away, some kept, but all in all, songs have come to life, and I will never regret that!
Where's the life in music? Seth said it beautifully, "Everyone's lyrics are the same!" We must live to be inspired! I want to write from my heart, not what a music label wants me to write! If you write a song and your first thought is, "I hope this sells", then you should drop everything you're doing, start writing country music, and sell it to Alan Jackson! I bet it's 5 o'clock somewhere!
I hope someone gets what I'm trying to say!
by the way, Seth, I know the guy that was drumming for Shaded Red right before the split! Oh, if I could tell you some stories!!!
Well, there was a time when I listened to Christian radio regularly. I never really liked all of it, but I listened. During that time period, I came to enjoy certain bands (Caedmon's/Derek, Third Day, Steven Curtis Chapman) that were regularly played. Eventually TD and SCC really came to be boring to me (while I became a Caedmon's nut). I also got into the music from the Passion guys (Redman, Tomlin, Crowder, Hall) because we played some of their stuff at church. So that was really my base. When I got to the point that I stopped enjoying Christian radio, I stuck with those guys. From them (and the .net) I found out about others: Sandra McCracken, You, The Normals, Randall Goodgame, Andrew Peterson...somewhere along the way I got into Shane and Shane. So, all that to say that these days, I get most of my leads on good music from the people I already listen to and from the online community (particularly the .net).
isn't it neat how keith ends every sentence in an exclamation mark?! it's so joyful!
Seth hit the nail on the head. I used to be a CCM junkie (even subscribed to the magazine when I was in high school), but somewhere along the way, the music died. I really thought that the death of Rich Mullins and the sudden popularity of worship songs were the end of thoughtful Christian music, but then I got hooked on artists like AP, Caedmon's/DWebb, and Sara Groves, and I knew that there were still Christian musicians out there capable of actually writing something with a little meat on the bones.
Back to your question about finding good Christian music: I'd rather listen to ESPN or NPR than most every Christian radio station. (My wife and I generally referred to the Christian radio station in Birmingham as WSUX). I don't go to the big concerts. Mostly, I listen to the musicians I respect and enjoy, and then I look at who it is that they hang around and make music with. Sometimes I stumble across something I like on iTunes. In fact, I loved listening to some of the iTunes recommendations that people gave you a couple of months ago. I guess I'm just a bit more selective these days when it comes to the music I listen to. If the "artists" don't have anything meaningful to say, then I'm not going to waste my time listening.
I had a lucky start to my listening career. Not only the connection with AO and Chapter 6 in high school, but Matt Wertz in college. So those were the artists I brought to the table when I started running sound and lights for a Christian home restoration ministry. I say 'bring to the table' because I was working with several people from around the country, and each of them also brought their favorites to the table. And since it was an organization that puts up a booth at the occasional youth workers conference, alot of people send their albums to the ministry.
In general then, the way that I have most come across good music is through trying out friends' recommendations. Sometimes it's good, but not my cup of tea (some of you wouldn't be into Chapter 6, I think), other times I really get into something. Just last night someone mentioned Shane and Shane, who I've never listened to, but I probably will now that I've seen it here, too.
There have been several fun surprises along the way that I knew but didn't ever hear for myself before: Neal Diamond, Acapella, Carrie Newcomer, etc.
The main way that I find out about new artists is to hear an artist I already love recommend another artist---either from the stage or by a link on his website. Seeing Laura Story or Buddy Miller on stage with Andrew Peterson made me check out their music more seriously. I'm now a fan of Lizza Connor after seeing a link on Osenga's site here.
Actually, the way I was first introduced to Osenga was off the Grassroots Sampler CD.
I won't rehash anything anyone else has said here in the name of my own opinion...I agree with everyone on this. Although my radio habits changed regarding Christian music, I've kept my ear to the ground, keeping up with what was going on and what was coming out. Using that perspective, I'm able to be much more exclusive about what Christian music I subject myself to. I'm able to choose for myself which artists to listen to instead of being told to listen to certain artists by a radio station. I don't know if that makes any sense to anyone else, but it's worked for me.
why is the PA date for the christmas show in Pittsburgh...on the same night as my work christmas party...arrggghh...once again i say, maybe next year.
I found you through AP's "Love and Thunder" and constant nagging by Eric Peters that I buy "Photographs". The same night I picked up "Photographs", I got "Coming to Life". So that's how I found your stuff.
(That night [9/11/03? at New City], btw, you played upright bass for 1 or 2 songs. AP on acoustic, Ben Shive on electric, Laura Story on piano, and you on the upright.)
Anyway, word of mouth isn't the quickest way of building a listener base, but it's quite effective. That list of links on artists sites that point to other musicians is a good way. I keep a list on my site. I've got that "AP is my friend" bumper sticker and usually get to tell about one person each week about who AP is. And I'm taking a friend up to Chattanooga with me next week. Word of mouth works.
The other folks here made some good points. Christian music (as an industry) has really gone downhill overall since that big worship fad hit. There are some Christian artists who are writing good music. Unfortunately, you won't hear much of them on the Christian radio stations.
Andy,
I'm right with you on this. Like so many others who've commented, I once was a CCM junkie, but no more. I think the thing that finally did it was the realization that CCM was nothing more than a "Christian" carbon copy of the regular music world. If something sold to the "secular" market, then we had to have a "Christian" version (and this goes with every aspect of life: from Testamints to Bible-as-teenmagazine). I can't remember where I read this, but someone said that CCM is a "Christian Ghetto." I agree. It's a place where Christians can go to hide from the world. If that offends anyone, I'm sorry. I know it sounds harsh, but that's what I've seen personally.
As for the music itself, my wife and I have gone round and round about this. She hears me rant and moan about not hearing Andy P, or Derek Webb, or Matthew Perryman Jones, or even Caedmon's on the radio. One day she told me her feelings on this, and I think she may be on to something. She said most people don't want to think. Most people don't want to hear a song about struggling with your faith. They want to hear "feel-good" songs, yet with a "Christian" theme. Hmmm...sounds about right.
I'm rambling, but I feel I have to go back to the secular/Christian thing. Should there be a separation? Are we not called to be "salt and light?" Should be not be "in the world, but not of it?" I don't think, on a whole, that CCM is. It's separtist. It's "this is Christian, this is not." I had a friend from church ask me the other day why I still listened to U2. U2!!! Just because someone doesn't say Jesus in a song (or, for that matter, just because they do!), doesn't make a song Christian or not. AARRGGHHHH!!!! I'm frustrated, so I better stop.
Andy, thanks for being true to yourself. Thanks for being honest with us all. Thanks for sharing your music with us. I've just been listening to AP's "Behold the Lamb," and still can't believe how awesome that album is. More importantly, I still can't believe how awesome our Savior is.
After all, He's the One this is all for, right?
I am part of the minority I guess. I love Christian radio. And the sponsorships, commercials...whatever. They are fine with me. People have happened across those stations and been exposed to Christ. And I warn against taking a borad stroke approach to labeling the whole thing bad when in fact the Spirit could in fact be at work. Could you not the n argue that you are speaking out against the Spirit?
With the good there must be some bad. While I agree that there is some marketing of Christ going on...which is BAD. I believe there are people who are doing it for all the RIGHT reasons. Again, don't make broad assumptions.
As for the fish. The icthus. It is my favorite of Christian symbols. Why? Because of it's history...
The Apostles were often referred to as "fishers of men". Followers of Christianity were called Pisciculi; the root of this Latin word is "fish". The symbols of "sacremental fish, with wine and a basket of bread represents the Eucharist and the Last Supper in Christian art." (2). The symbol was simple to draw and was often used among Christians as a type of password during times of persecution by the Roman government. If two strangers met and were unsure whether each other was a Christian, one would draw an arc in the earth like:). If the other were a Christian, they would complete the symbol with a reverse arc: (), forming the outline of a fish.
I think it is becoming way too popular to speak out against things of "the church." Christian t-shirts and marketing. Is it not getting people talking about Christ? Is it not bringing up dialogue that in essence opens the door for you to witness? Yet again...broad criticisms can be dangerous.
We are at a crossroads in the church. The way things have always been (organs, hymn books and 3 point outlines) and the way things are headed (power point, praise bands and video). If no one budged and the church was not allowed to evolve...what would happen then?
I think there is great, intelligent, thoughtful, dynamic "christian music" (hate the term) out there and it never died. But what I think did die is "christian business" (yet another term that I don't think can hardly exist). To me it seems that the labels just really aren't interested in what's good or thoughtful. They're only interested in what's commercial so they can make more money (which is WHY the worship music fad arose... which is bitter sweet). Of course there are some exceptions. INO Records really seems to care about their artists' messages just as much, if not more, than their music. Of course, I'm sure MercyMe gave them enough revenue to not be pinching pennies, either.
Getting off the Christian music thing for a second, and moving into the one of the larger issues in the worship phenomenom is Christian marketing in general. Andrew made a great comment in his other post about Christians selling the idea of being Christians, or having faith or values rather than selling the product. There was a great article on Relevant.com about Discernment in Entertainment. The author was saying how we're so eager (as a Christian market) to consumer "christian" products/music/entertainment, that we've started to lose our ability to discern between the good and the mediocre. According to Willow Creek the Christian sales industry is a 4.2 billion dollar deal.
On one hand I really think we as Christians need to be better at marketing ourselves. Actually I just think Christians need to not settle for inferior art/music etc. (but that may never happen on a large scale). On the other hand I just want Christian to get out of the whole marketing thing and stop trying to sell ourselve to everyone else.
But I'm also the guy that kind of hated seeing Switchfoot get big because they were one of my favorites and now they play arena's instead of clubs and its harder to get tickets and see a great show. So I don't want to be a person who doesn't want Christian artists to be able to be successful.
Check out churchmarketingsucks.com for some more thought on Christian marketing in general. Its good stuff.
Can anyone give me a good, working definition for "Christian Music?" Do we know what we are talking about here?
Hey there,
I get my music in some odd ways. I have been a Caedmon's fan for a while. They played at my wife's college one year. I didn't see them, but did see one of their posters still hanging around the campus. I thought "Hmm, interesting name. What are they all about?" So I bought one of the CD's (can't remember now). That led me to other stuff (ie. AP, Bebo, and the like). I'll be honest Andy, I didn't know who you were til you joined the band. But I'm totally digging your stuff. We saw you guys in Wheaton and your mini-set was a highlight. Yeah yeah I'm a suck up.
Anyway, I basically get into an artist and then try to find out who they're listening to and on down the line. You get some real gems that way.
Hey guys!
Well, since I'm from Brazil, you can be sure that it is 10 times more dificult for me to get good, quality music.
Everything that I know and that comes from the US, I found out through the Internet. Caedmon's Call, Derek Webb, Andrew Peterson, Mr. Osenga, Bebo Norman... and also the guys from Passion (Crowder, Hall, Tomlin and Redman... almost like Crosby, Stills, Nash and Young... just kidding...). Since I lead worship at my Church, I was really into worship and everytyhing. Worship records are easier to find here ion Brazil... and also Third Day, MWS, SCC, Jars of Clay (we have all theis discography printed here), Rebecca St, James and the likes...
But, as I really like the indie / folk / acoustic stuff, it gets really hard for me to buy records. So that you know, the only records made by the guys we love that are printed here are Caedmon's 40 Acres and Long Line of Leavers, AP's Carried Away and Bebo's Ten Thousand Days. We don´t have any of Derek's, Shaun Groves, Mr. Osenga... well, you get my point.
We don't even have any Passion record here yet, and they are really popular.
So... I go to official websites, MySpace... and then I find out about the amazing musicians that are there. I have a bunch of Mr. Osenga's MP3, from MySpace and from the Website... and so on.
I could go on saying that the currency diference is also a HUGE problem, bur I won't go there.
So... that's it. It's not impossible to find good music through the internet, it is actualy a nice thing to do... if you have the time and a good connection.
And as a indie artist myself, MySpace is a real blessing... :D
Well, I have to go now...
Eduardo
Well, now that we know that word of mouth is a good avenue and that many of us look toward our favorite artists to find more favorite artists... I think Andy O should give us his, "celebrity playlist". Then we will know the road to great music.
CL
Being that this is my first post, I'll try to avoid too much controversy...
But being currently deployed to non-America (where Allah hangs out) and reading complaints about Christian radio just irks me a bit. In my mind, the important thing is that the Message is heard. We are blessed with the freedom to sing about Jesus, and wear the t-shirt and the bracelet and chew the gum and all the other awful things we do in his name. Plenty of people go about things in the wrong way (ie Pat "Kill him too" Robertson and Forefront "Let's ruin this band" Records), but who's to say that God is not working through them too. I believe there's something in the Bible about that (the non-disciple guy driving out demons, or something to that effect)...
Anyway, my overall experience with Christian radio has been positive. Even though I've had to watch some truly great bands fall to the industry (Seven Day Jesus, Burlap to Cashmere, The Normals of course, etc) while other artists inexplicably persist on and on and on, I've always felt a spirit of hope in the music that cannot be duplicated by secular artists. And here on the dark side of the world (next door to the "axis of evil") that hope (10Gigs worth in my PhiPod) is something I'm deeply thankful for. No, I don't agree with all the shady dealings and circumvention of laws, but if that's what it takes for a struggling fifteen year-old to stumble across a Caedmon's tune and find a glint of hope, then is it really that bad? If you don't like/need Christian radio, then don't listen to/support it. But don't take it for granted. It has its place, beset with flaws like each of us, but still a part of a greater purpose.
My question is this... How do we make "good" music popular again?
I know that one thing that we as indie music fans love, is that not everyone loves the music we listen to; it makes us feel special like we have something that few people know about, but isn't it important for us to get the "good" (and by good i mean theologically sound, and intimately honest) music into the hands of everyone; not just the elite few who take the time to search for it.
This is my struggle as a fan and as a musician.
How do we reform the system?
Andy: I have two main tools of choice: http://rocksmyfaceoff.net/forum/" rel="nofollow">The Rumor Forum, and http://last.fm/" rel="nofollow">Last.FM. The former is a social thing---we talk about music---and the latter is a statistical thing---based on the music I already listen to, it compares me to the music other folks are listening to, and helps me fill in the gaps.
For an example, check out http://www.last.fm/inbox/recommendations.php" rel="nofollow">my recommendations page on Last.FM. There are gaps in what's in my work machine's music collection---I do own a Beatles album, I haven't brought my Counting Crows stuff to the office, and I haven't brought in my Dylan either---but it does a good job of helping me find stuff. I've taken chances on bands Last.FM recommended me---Hem was one, and you loved the single I made you download from Eveningland.
Of course, you have to listen to music on a Mac or PC often to make Last.FM really work for you, and while you don't, many of your readers likely do. My office machine cycles through my iTunes library 24/7.
is reform necessary? i mean, we all come from a variety of backgrounds and tastes. i have some friends who LOVE the music i consider sickening. they, likewise, dislike the music i find wonderful. there will always be those who like "Christian" radio and saccharine coated songs. that i enjoy groups like waterdeep, AO, five o'clock people, duvall, mewithoutyou, cool hand luke (among others), means i ought to listen to them.
i'm beginning to approach things like this:
if i like it, i listen to it. if i don't like it, i don't listen to it and whine and moan about it - i just don't listen to it!
it's like going to church. if i like having communion every sunday, i don't go to a church that doesn't serve communion every sunday and then complain about it. i find a church that suits me and i go to it.
frequently, good things have to be found. discovered. i can't criticize people or bands for their musical taste - i just need to find the music and run with it. sometimes the discoveries are accidental. other times intentional. but the search is always fun.
I'm not criticizing the styles of music played on christian radio. Everyone has their own tastes. I (and i think the others) are criticizing the content that seems cliche and sometimes just blantantly unbiblical. This is an area that i feel needs reform. The sad thing is that it seems that alot of the more pop forms of music are forced to be cliche and "feel good" because that is what sells, and the independant musicians have greater freedom in their music and in their message.
I just want to hear an honest message.
Andrew,
I have been listening since the last Normals album. I think that the longer I have been Christian, the less interested in CCM I become. I also think that a lot of it has to do with theology. I cannot really listen to music that I do not agree with theologically, which wipes out pretty much 95% of CCM in general. So I have to stick with people who are affiliated with other people I already know. So if someone has a CD and plays on a Derek Webb or Sandra McCracken release, I will go check them out... because chances are they are of like mind when it comes to their view of what art should be in the believer's life. I honestly no longer draw a line between the sacred and the secular when it comes to art.
Thanks to many great artists such as yourself, Webb, McCracken, AP and others involved in RUF, my iPod is full of great music.
Wow...uh, I didn't know there were so many people like me. I also used to listen to a *lot* of CCM in high school but found a lot of people such as Andy, Andy, Andy, and Randy (ok, Randall) by looking at the links page of other artists' sites. Caedmon's Call and that whole Circle Of Friends was also a springboard for finding other musicians. Is it just me or do all the good musicians know each other?
Part of the struggle with changing the system is that some people don't want to listen to music that isn't catchy the first time you hear it, or where every single line might not have a clear meaning. 7 or 8 years ago, I wouldn't have been able to see anything wrong with any aspect of CCM.
Side note: Andy asked if we went outside our community for development in our faith. Randall Goodgame keeps a blog that I go to every day...really great writings. http://infuzemag.com/staff/randall