Monday
Mar262007
That rascally Derek...
Monday, March 26, 2007 at 12:06PM
My friend Derek has a great story about him in the USA TODAY right now. Click HERE to read it. What do you think about what he says? Agree? Disagree?
Reader Comments (20)
Looks like much of the same that Derek has been saying for a while now (I especially agree with the part about Jesus not being a white middle-class Democrat, either! It's too easy for us to backlash against every movement or group of people.) Good stuff all around.
Thanks for link! I'm putting it up on SPA.net, also.
I think Derek is preaching to the choir.
I agree with a lot of what he says, but I don't think he will ever "convince" anyone of anything he is saying, if they don't already feel that way.
Sure he won't be asked back to a Southern Baptist Church in Texas, but a reformed college would have him at their chapel.
I'm just not sure what he is trying to accomplish, and 10 more tracks of him complaining doesn't sound all that appealing to me.
Don't get me wrong, I love his stuff and I think he has a great message, but I think the way he is relaying that message has come off a bit antagonistic, and I wonder if he is reaching anyone.
Sounds like Derek is just trying to be faithful for what he knows to be true. I don't know if he is to interested in reaching anyone. Sell enough records to eat? Sure. Make music for mass consumption? probably not.
DW said, speaking of Jesus, "he reserved some of his harshest language for the law-keeping church leadership."
I can only assume he means the Jewish Pharisees? Not sure I'd call that "church leadership".
I don't mind Derek's continuous anthem, because I think I know his heart...but it could very easily be misinterpreted...
We politely listen to Derek voice his opinions about his view of American Christianity. We listen and consider his views and agree with some and disagree with others. I'm not sure it builds up the Body of Christ.
Perhaps he should write and perform songs about his views of the problems with the leadership of other major religions both here and in other important countries.
Honestly, Mockingbird made me think and challenged me more than any record I've ever heard... with brilliant lyrics and great music. Do I agree with everything he says, no, but thinking is requisite to listening to Derek's music. Is Derek preaching to the choir or to himself? I think he is writing stuff first and foremost that he believes he needs to be reminded about with songs like Wedding Dress, King and a Kingdom and My Enemies are Men Like Me before he is saying it to anyone. At first I felt like he was pointing the finger a lot and it was hard to hear his message. I have heard him expound his view numerous times in the last year and feel like I understand what drives Derek better and I truly don't believe he's just an angry liberal white man, but one motivated by love and passion to bring a corrective message-that can obviously be a lightning rod.
I feel no need to defend Derek or his music. I am grateful for Derek's music and willing to say things to me I didn't want to hear, for being willing to be misunderstood by me in what he was saying, and especially for make great albums that I not only love musically, but seriously challenge in their message. And I've seen the same be true for more people than not that have seriously encountered his music.
I am so worn out by the DW conversation. I have had it at every bible study I have been to for the past year. I can't do it. I love the little bald guy but disagree strongly, viscerally even, with much of his message. I have read his interviews and listened to him and still find him joyless. I love his music and I find his message challenging, I am just tired of being (deservedly or not) beat up by it. DARN IT!! I got involved anyway...
"I have read his interviews and listened to him and still find him joyless."
Exactly.
I'm not sure how one can take him as joyless. That seems to be (without the gift of discernment, at least, which is not mine to give or take) for God to judge. Jesus himself was overcome with sorrow and anger many times, but without the joy between him and the Father, I think that those other feelings would've been empty gestures.
"Preaching to the choir," maybe. I don't think his message is for everyone. For example, I was surprised and humbled to find that a dear friend of mine was blessed by reading and implementing "The Prayer of Jabez," a book which I disagreed with for a few reasons. All told, it may not have been a message for me. But DW can't really control who buys his albums and comes to concerts. The particular audience might be a context we need to consider.
I also found Jones' statements about "aggressive" Christianity interesting. I'd love to know what she meant by that.
This is my first time to post here, though I’m a regular reader of the site, and a big fan of Andrew’s music. Not sure if that needed to be said, but there you go.
This Derek thing is hard for me. I’m a professional musician, and when I was first getting started in my career, Derek and some of the Caedmon’s crowd were really kind and helpful to me, so I of course have that “baggage� coming in. I mean, from what I remember, he's just a nice guy.
Truthfully, I have wondered if Derek’s message is a little too consistently negative. I’m absolutely in agreement with a huge chunk of what he is saying, but I also agree that it can seem, when taken as an album-after-album-after-album whole, to be more than a little cynical.
So I struggle with really wanting to sit down and listen, repeatedly, to Derek’s music, not because I’m too offended by it, and not because I’d prefer to hear some so-optimistic-it’s-idiotic CCM crap. But because I just get a little weary, the same way I’d get weary having weekly breakfast meetings with a pastor friend who continually complains about his church job and his brainless congregants. Or whatever. No analogy is perfect, so don’t kill me for that one, please.
But on the other hand (and I promise I’m almost done here), is ANYONE ELSE saying these kinds of things? I mean, you’ve got geniuses like the 3 Andy’s (Osenga, Peterson, and Gullahorn), and they of course say bold, truthful, beautiful stuff. But does anyone else in “Christian music� have Derek’s combination of highly visible platform, deep conviction, brilliant musicianship, Biblical context, and guts? Admittedly, I don’t listen to enough CCM to know the answer to that. So it’s not really a rhetorical question. I’m really asking.
The point (and I think most everyone on here would agree) is that I think it’s tough to be Derek Webb, and it’s getting tougher all the time. I think (and I’m just guessing here) that he’s as tired of his “complaining� as we are. But he can’t stop because the problems, as he sees them, still exist. Whether or not he’s always offering the best, most Kingdom-minded, Spirit-filled conclusions, I think he feels deeply, achingly compelled to ask the questions and write the songs. “Like a fire shut up in his bones,� he’s “weary of holding it in,� kind of thing.
So here’s what I’m doing, and everybody else can do whatever they want to, of course. I’m going to keep listening to Derek, because he ALWAYS makes me think, and because he, quite often, makes me laugh and cry and stick my fist in the air like a Black Panther. And I’m going to be honest (like many of you are) when I think he misses the mark or when I think he’s just seeing the negatives. That’s what I’m supposed to do. But I’m also going to be thankful -- really thankful -- for his words and thoughts. Because I don’t think Christian radio is going to help me sift thru the muck that Derek is trying to kick off his shoes.
Please excuse the long (first) post. And forgive me if any of that sounds superior or preachy. That's not my intention. I love this site, and I appreciate it, not only for Andrew’s posts, but for the friendly conversation that I see here. There aren't a lot of places for the American Christian to be really honest, and this seems to be one of them.
gee whiz. it looks even longer now that it's up. sorry, again, for that. i never thought i'd be "that guy."
Great post Ross. Here is where I am after reading all of this. I am going to pray for those that offend, challenge and seem to judge me. Sometimes I can't get to the truth of the message because I feel judged and my defenses go up. I am going to pray that those people (derek, donald miller, mclaren and others in the emergent church movement) are given a clarity of vision. I am going to pray that if I am the one in need of this challenge that my heart changes and that if they need joy reinserted into their lives they get it. I am going to pray for a heart open to truth. I don't know how else to drop my preconceptions.
Jason (and whoever else might know), is Derek Webb in the emergent church movement?
I don't think so. Derek's too smart for that. (At least for a great deal of it...)
No he is at a PCA church (I think). I wasn't indicating that he was in the emergent church, just that they are also people who challenge my beliefs and get me riled up beyond being reasonable at times.
i cant believe this church exist!
http://www.uua.org/aboutuu/weare.html
it doesnt even talk about Jesus. its very unitarian...of all religious belief not of all christian denominations
"The people he loved most lavishly were often socially stigmatized, and he reserved some of his harshest language for the law-keeping church leadership."
If Derek is talking about the Pharisees here its not because they followed the law, but the converse. The Pharisees were too lenient when it came to the law and it actually angered Christ that they were legalistic about it, not because they were following the law (hence what we consider legalism to be), but because they were legalizing the law itself. They didn't follow the law using a literal term of legalism. Kind of like lawyers trying to find loopholes in the law in todays time. This is kind of what the pharisees did.
"The point is that he didn't walk any party line."
If we look at the time that Christ lived, it would be obvious to see that He was very political in His dealing with the Jews. It was necessary for Him to be because they were not following His Fathers law, and the norm for that time was to talk about the Law. Granted, though, He did not fully agree with any of the parties of that time because none of them had it completely right. Christ was the only one who had it right, and if He came into this culture i'm pretty sure He'd say the same exact thing to all of us. Very little of what Christ said probably has cultural limitations, but if its easier to be a Christian without giving absolutely everything to God, then being the legalists that we are we will do as little as possible in following God just like the Pharisees...Interesting developement if you ask me...
God bless,
Sadclown
From that article:
"Webb, 32, began his career in that market, as part of the Christian band Caedmon's Call. 'But as I looked around, I thought, "where are our artists who are talking about politics? About the government?" It's the job of creative people, and especially those who are followers of Jesus, to be radical truth-tellers. That's what the prophets did.'"
Personally, I think "artists" are among the least qualified to talk about politics and the government. Every time a musician opens his (or her) mouth about either subject, I get ready to hear something stupid or unfairly overgeneralized (and, yes, I know that I am being unfairly overgeneral).
Sure, the prophets were radical truth-tellers. But they didn't try to fit their critiques into 210-second sound bytes. And for good reason.
Some Bible Scholars believe that Jesus was studying to be a Pharisee or was in fact a Pharisee. I think there is a verse or two that hints at this. Nothing to do with Derek, just thought I'd throw that in there.
"It’s the job of creative people, and especially those who are followers of Jesus, to be radical truth-tellers."
I agree with this but at the same time I think you can "say something" without actually "saying it� Dylan’s "Hard Rain" was a good example. That is what separates art from the politics or at the very least elevates it. Everyone thought Dylan was talking about Acid rain and he kept saying "no, its not acid rain, its a HARD rain." He also wrote blatantly like in Masters of War but later he avoided the judgment seat and let the art live on its own terms without coming to the table for the purpose of "saying something� This pissed off his fellow folk-writers. They wanted him to keep up the protest songs. The departure from explicit protest songs ended up bringing Dylan to a much wider audience.