Monday
Feb122007
love your enemies
Monday, February 12, 2007 at 01:49AM
This past year I've started to become a news junkie. For that you can blame Apple Computers and the Drudge Report. I keep reading about wars and killing and torture and revenge. I fly most every weekend and am incredibly frustrated with the incompetence and screwy economics of national security. I find myself more and more thinking like a pacifist.
As stated by a number of Caedmon's fans in 2003, I am no Derek Webb. I don't have this all figured out. This post you're reading is me working these thoughts out, and I'd love your opinions.
Obviously, the war in Iraq is on my mind the most when I think about these things. I've had some good conversations from guys who have served over there and I am well aware that there is good happening in the area and that all we see in the media is the bad stuff. Just like the non-stop "news" about whats-her-name, the rich Playboy model who just died, the media reports the darkest stuff to get the best ratings.
However, it's obvious to all that the war isn't going "as well" as it was supposed to. The president said that, and he, for all his faults, always seems to say what he really thinks. But what does a war that "goes well" look like? A quick victory, I assume. But the truth is that a quick victory or a slow loss look very similar in a global sense: many, many people are killed by many, many other people.
I've had it explained to me many times how "Thou shalt not kill" doesn't apply to war, but I still have a hard time believing it. I also have a hard time believing in the idea of a "just war". What's cited as a just war is often America's involvement in WWII. Nazi-ism was terrible and the holocaust needed to end, that is so true, but America didn't enter the war to stop the Holocaust. We entered because Japan bombed us and we fought back. History is taught to us very differently than it actually happened. Much like our current war, we declared war for revenge while carrying a banner of liberation.
If America really entered Iraq because it's our job to stop dictators and genocides then why haven't we invaded Darfur or Sudan or North Korea? I don't buy the "teacher stopping the bully from picking on the other kids" bit. Not that it didn't happen, it did, but that wasn't the motivation. I'm sure it has something to do with oil and money, it always does. I'm sure it had something to do with helping people out, that's always a good thing. I'm very sure it had an awful lot to do with revenge.
But this war is flawed like any war, and I don't claim to understand any of them. What I do understand, though, is that every father killed creates an enemy out of the child. There are orphans in Baghdad and in New York City who will grow up hating the people on the other side. More killing leads to more enemies.
I was terrified and angered by the treatment of Saddam Hussein. Not that he wasn't guilty as a mob boss, he was, but they made him a martyr and that was a very bad thing to do. I was glad to see America getting as far away from that as it could. Martyrs are powerful things, and war creates many of them.
I see some of both sides though, when I really think about it. The Holocaust of Nazi Germany needed to end, as it does now in the Sudan and Darfur. The oppression of the Dalit in India needs to end. In the case of the Nazis I don't know how else you could have stopped them. Could there have been another way?
It just seems, though, that fighting just leads to more fighting. Hiroshima won the war, but at what a terrible cost. Our proud nation killed hundreds of thousands of innocent women and children. I will never see a justification for that. Somehow Japan has moved on, though the scars must run so incredibly deep.
Even if the weapons are laid down, the wars still live on in the heart. I live in the South right down the Interstate from a statue of the founder of the KKK. That war is still being fought by some people.
I ran across this article yesterday from The New Yorker. This paragraph was really interesting to me...
Since September 11th, depictions of torture have become much more common on American television. Before the attacks, fewer than four acts of torture appeared on prime-time television each year, according to Human Rights First, a nonprofit organization. Now there are more than a hundred, and, as David Danzig, a project director at Human Rights First, noted, “the torturers have changed. It used to be almost exclusively the villains who tortured. Today, torture is often perpetrated by the heroes.
That is a pretty incredible picture of us as a culture now, don't you think? They only keep putting that stuff on TV because we keep choosing to watch it. We got attacked and it seems, at least subliminally, we want to fight back.
The only real way to end a war, that I can see, is by ending the fight. For good. And that only happens one way. Not by victory, but by forgiveness. We will kill each other until someone chooses forgiveness over revenge, even over justice.
Especially as a Christian, one who believes that God chose to forgive me over exacting justice, how can I not apply that in war? Weren't we commanded to love our enemies? I don't see any grey areas there, as much as I feel I'm supposed to. I just don't. Not only do I think forgiveness is the wisest thing to do, I feel like it's the right thing to do.
Now I know that some of you readers are folks in the service. I would REALLY like to know your thoughts on this. A few of you are veterans. Please take a few minutes to write your responses to this, even if its to tell me I'm an ungrateful fool. To all of you, how do you interpret "love your enemies" as a nation at war?
I read a story by the great Wendell Berry a few months ago where the main character told how his grandfather on one side shot and killed his great-grandfather on the other. The son of the slain man stopped a lynch mob on their way to get the killer. The narrator ends the story by saying of his grandfather "I was the child of his forgiveness." I couldn't help but cry with the weight and beauty of that sentence. I want my children to live with the freedom of forgiveness. How do I start doing that?
As stated by a number of Caedmon's fans in 2003, I am no Derek Webb. I don't have this all figured out. This post you're reading is me working these thoughts out, and I'd love your opinions.
Obviously, the war in Iraq is on my mind the most when I think about these things. I've had some good conversations from guys who have served over there and I am well aware that there is good happening in the area and that all we see in the media is the bad stuff. Just like the non-stop "news" about whats-her-name, the rich Playboy model who just died, the media reports the darkest stuff to get the best ratings.
However, it's obvious to all that the war isn't going "as well" as it was supposed to. The president said that, and he, for all his faults, always seems to say what he really thinks. But what does a war that "goes well" look like? A quick victory, I assume. But the truth is that a quick victory or a slow loss look very similar in a global sense: many, many people are killed by many, many other people.
I've had it explained to me many times how "Thou shalt not kill" doesn't apply to war, but I still have a hard time believing it. I also have a hard time believing in the idea of a "just war". What's cited as a just war is often America's involvement in WWII. Nazi-ism was terrible and the holocaust needed to end, that is so true, but America didn't enter the war to stop the Holocaust. We entered because Japan bombed us and we fought back. History is taught to us very differently than it actually happened. Much like our current war, we declared war for revenge while carrying a banner of liberation.
If America really entered Iraq because it's our job to stop dictators and genocides then why haven't we invaded Darfur or Sudan or North Korea? I don't buy the "teacher stopping the bully from picking on the other kids" bit. Not that it didn't happen, it did, but that wasn't the motivation. I'm sure it has something to do with oil and money, it always does. I'm sure it had something to do with helping people out, that's always a good thing. I'm very sure it had an awful lot to do with revenge.
But this war is flawed like any war, and I don't claim to understand any of them. What I do understand, though, is that every father killed creates an enemy out of the child. There are orphans in Baghdad and in New York City who will grow up hating the people on the other side. More killing leads to more enemies.
I was terrified and angered by the treatment of Saddam Hussein. Not that he wasn't guilty as a mob boss, he was, but they made him a martyr and that was a very bad thing to do. I was glad to see America getting as far away from that as it could. Martyrs are powerful things, and war creates many of them.
I see some of both sides though, when I really think about it. The Holocaust of Nazi Germany needed to end, as it does now in the Sudan and Darfur. The oppression of the Dalit in India needs to end. In the case of the Nazis I don't know how else you could have stopped them. Could there have been another way?
It just seems, though, that fighting just leads to more fighting. Hiroshima won the war, but at what a terrible cost. Our proud nation killed hundreds of thousands of innocent women and children. I will never see a justification for that. Somehow Japan has moved on, though the scars must run so incredibly deep.
Even if the weapons are laid down, the wars still live on in the heart. I live in the South right down the Interstate from a statue of the founder of the KKK. That war is still being fought by some people.
I ran across this article yesterday from The New Yorker. This paragraph was really interesting to me...
Since September 11th, depictions of torture have become much more common on American television. Before the attacks, fewer than four acts of torture appeared on prime-time television each year, according to Human Rights First, a nonprofit organization. Now there are more than a hundred, and, as David Danzig, a project director at Human Rights First, noted, “the torturers have changed. It used to be almost exclusively the villains who tortured. Today, torture is often perpetrated by the heroes.
That is a pretty incredible picture of us as a culture now, don't you think? They only keep putting that stuff on TV because we keep choosing to watch it. We got attacked and it seems, at least subliminally, we want to fight back.
The only real way to end a war, that I can see, is by ending the fight. For good. And that only happens one way. Not by victory, but by forgiveness. We will kill each other until someone chooses forgiveness over revenge, even over justice.
Especially as a Christian, one who believes that God chose to forgive me over exacting justice, how can I not apply that in war? Weren't we commanded to love our enemies? I don't see any grey areas there, as much as I feel I'm supposed to. I just don't. Not only do I think forgiveness is the wisest thing to do, I feel like it's the right thing to do.
Now I know that some of you readers are folks in the service. I would REALLY like to know your thoughts on this. A few of you are veterans. Please take a few minutes to write your responses to this, even if its to tell me I'm an ungrateful fool. To all of you, how do you interpret "love your enemies" as a nation at war?
I read a story by the great Wendell Berry a few months ago where the main character told how his grandfather on one side shot and killed his great-grandfather on the other. The son of the slain man stopped a lynch mob on their way to get the killer. The narrator ends the story by saying of his grandfather "I was the child of his forgiveness." I couldn't help but cry with the weight and beauty of that sentence. I want my children to live with the freedom of forgiveness. How do I start doing that?
Reader Comments (46)
Jesus a pacifist? Read Revelation 19. Some pacifist. In righteousness He judges and...what?
People have been trying to make our Lord out to be a divine Gandhi for a number of decades now. He isn't that easy to pin down, in ANY direction--left, right, whatever.
Dang, this a tough topic. Maybe even more so than the Clay Aiken debate. Still, It's been good to see where other people stand on the issue. One thought I had. I feel a bit uncomfortable when people use Jesus's words to nullify the Old Testament because it contains the aforementioned "God-directed" war scenario. I, myself struggle with that concept, but I can't use that to suggest that the New and Old testaments stand in absolute opposition to one another. As much as we villify the law, Jesus did come to fulfill it, not abolish it. I think that applies to this discussion, but it's late and my brain is failing me. Cut us some slack and make the next blog easier. Perhaps something lighter like puppies, rainbows, NSYNC, or predestination.
I don't think anyone likes war, soldiers do not like it, but when called it is their duty. They do what 95% of us won't do, can't do, or in some cases feel it is beneath them. As has been said countless times, if it weren't for our military we may not have the freedoms we have today to speak our minds for or against the war. There are many devoted Christians in the military and many of them will tell you the Lord has led them to that job. A commitment to that many people outside the military cannot understand. What bothers me more than anything is people who do not respect those in the military. And I believe, intentional or not, some that are so vocal in opposition to the war (regardless of their political leanings) disrespect those in harms way. Do I sound like a broken record? Maybe, but I think people need to hear it. People also need to hear the good that our troops are doing.
To your point, I believe the current conflict from its inception is just. Can we love our enemies? Sure we can. But does that mean that our enemies will always respond well? Unfortunately no. So if that is not successful what next? For example if President Bush, as a Christian, met with Saddam when Saddam was still the mass murdering dictator of Iraq, reached out to him to love his enemy what would have happen? Of course with God its entirely possible Saddam's heart could have changed. However if not and Saddam continued his evil reign what then? There comes a point where war sometimes must come. Do we have to like it? No. Is it ugly? Yes. It's easy for us to monday morning quarterback what the best thing to do is when we are not the person making the decision given the information at the time. Why do you think all presidents hair turns grey by the end of their term?
To Geof Morris:
I promise this is going to be the last thing I say on the matter of Forrest, Wallace, etc. I understand and agree with what you're saying. However, the problem that I have is not that people look at the bad things that those men did. Truly, they did awful things that should never be glossed over. The problem is that people tend to look only at those things and then stop there, ignoring the them of redemption in their lives. No one remembers Forrest for doing anything OTHER than founding the KKK, and that's what bothers me. He's not a man to many people, only a symbol of racism. And that's unfair, because it's certainly not the legacy that he ultimately tried to leave.
Just so my post is not completely off-topic, I will say that I believe in the Just War Theory, but I also believe that just wars are extremely rare. I think that getting rid of Saddam was a good thing, but I'm sure it was not handled in the best way possible.
Yes Jesus is the prince of peace. But, He also said he did not come to bring peace but a SWORD.
It should not be a suprise that these terrorist want to exterminate America and Isreal. Jesus said if they hated him they will hate us as well. They hate with a passion our Freedom to Worship Christ. I'll forgive and love my enemies. But I can not excuse the consiquence for their actions. As long we are in this fallen world, their will be War. this wasn't the First and it won't be the Last. That's Just the way it is since when Cain Killed Abel (for not liking the way abel worshiped God). This is our fight for freedom now. Just like our Revolutionary War, Civil War, World War, and now War on Terror. It's NEVER right or Just. But thats the reality of our fallen world. And Who knows, We might not even be here right now writing our blogs, listening to our I-pods, if it wasen,t for our right to uphold the constitution and our freedom in past generations.
This is a great discussion with no clear cut answers. Thanks, Andy for raising some really good questions and deep thoughts. You might want to check out a book I read this summer for a class on the mission of the church called AXIS OF PEACE: CHRISTIAN FAITH IN TIMES OF VIOLENCE AND WAR by S. Wesley Ariarajah (a professor at Drew who is a Methodist pastor from Sri Lanka). It deals with a lot of the issues you have been discussing. Ariarajah ultimately rejects just war and any kind of war and instead offers a model of reconciliation, citing South Africa as a modern example of reconciliation and forgiveness at work. You can also look for an article of his online called "Religion and Violence" that touches briefly on the subject. AXIS OF PEACE is a great book, though, and is timely and relevant. Reconciliation and forgiveness are not always possible, but I still feel that is what we as Christians are called to do, even if everyone else isn't coming along for the ride. Thanks again for some awesome thoughts!
I think, like many here, this is something that we all wrestle with. It is great to see it being discussed here. My interpretation is that the commandment is "Thou shall not murder." I think there is a difference between murder and killing someone. I know that this could spin off into another theological discussion that is not my intent. We do not murder murderers. We kill them. We do not "murder" them by lethal injection. We "kill" them by lethal injection. I feel killing is justified, by biblical standards, because it is killing is usually part of justice. Now that doesn't mean a person can't accidentally "kill� another. In those cases there is no need to punish the person for the crime of murder. How does this relate? Well, I see allot of people evoking the "turn the other cheek" argument. We do need to turn the other cheek. We also need to remember that back then that the act of slapping someone on the cheek, with the right hand, was a gross insult. Not the equivalent of murder. Please don't think that I am a bloodthirsty warmonger. I am just saying that I believe that killing as a means of punishment is justified in the Bible.
Now as far as the war goes.... that’s another story. I feel it was necessary and the intent was noble. But I also feel it has been bungled. I think it is interesting though that it is mostly Christians who acknowledge Islamic terrorism as a real threat and need to be dealt with. Which puts us in a very precarious position. We are poised to become the laughing stock in a war of sick fundamentalism or the heroes of the free world.
Especially as a Christian, one who believes that God chose to forgive me over exacting justice, how can I not apply that in war?
Just wanted to point out that God didn't choose forgiveness over exacting justice-- grace and justice met at the cross. God's wrath and justice were fully satisfied in the death of Christ.
The way this applies to your point is that as Christians, we must absorb the cost of forgiveness, paying it ourselves when it deserves to be paid by our enemies. This is definitely a hard teaching.
33 comments. How do I follow that?
Someone has already mentioned differentiating between the responsibility of the government and that of individual Christians. 1 Peter 2:14 pretty directly says that God has ordained the government to "punish those who do evil and to praise those who do good." (ESV).
Now, we can argue about needing to "turn the other cheek", but what if the government did that? Where would it stop? If someone pulls a gun in a shopping mall and starts shooting people, as happened in Utah the other day, should the off-duty cop just sit there and say "yeah, dude, shoot me again!"? No, we have a reasonable expectation that he, as an extension of the government, will use the force necessary to stop the shooter. And he did.
Now, we can take this wider-scale, to affairs between nations. War is a nasty thing. But it is the responsibility of our government to protect its citizens. And when we elect a president we are saying that we trust him to be in charge of those decisions.
BJ said this:
I say he's right on.
The vast majority of just war theory comes as a response to a post Constantine Christianity that saw that the eschatology was not coming as soon as they had hoped, so they felt if their emperor was a Christian, and he declared war, it could be just.
I feel that is a watering down of the gospel in which Jesus calls us to love our enemy, to turn the other cheek, that the peace makers are blessed, as are the meek.
The early church was full of followers who would rather die than water down their faith, like Polycarp for instance.
It's something I have struggled with a lot, because what I feel like Jesus is calling us to do in those passages seems to completely evade logic. However, the problem could lie in the fact that our logic has so shifted from how the gospel is calling us to live that we try to justify it from a logical stand point.
This might seem like a rabbit trail, but please hear me out. I will refer to a few verses that I find to be relevant to many of the questions posed here. Acts 23:1-3; Here we find the person from which we derive much of our doctrine living out being slapped on the cheak as close to literally as I have seen in the New Testament. Acts 16:37; Again, Paul behaving oddly. Luke 22:36; I don't even know what to say here. Matt 21:12, Mark 11:15, John 2:15; This reminds me of Aslan not being "safe."
I only know a few things: God has shown me ferocious love in what would seem to men as tragedy. I have been comissioned to care for orphans, widows, and the poor. I have been comissioned to help see the gospel to the ends of the earth. Now I don't know these things, but I'm working through them: If I witness a large man hitting a small girl and do nothing about it, my heart is grieved and I believe I have sinned. In my own house, if one of my boys were to take aggressive action (even verbal) against his mother I would be at least a little (if not much) grieved to know that his siblings did nothing to stop him. And I imagine that if in protecting thier mother or sister or whomever in harms way, one of my sons killed his brother (another son of mine), we would both be grieved deeply, but I would not be angry with him. If in trying to protect, he accidentally caused the death of any number of my other innocent children, I would still not be angry with him. We would share a common sorrow, and I would be comforted in his weeping with me.
I would dare not comment on the present war, which I know so very little about. But tonight I will pray that it's end comes quickly, and that joy comes will it's morning.
I agree it's not right. War is not right. This world is not right. Our world tells us that is always someone else's fault. It's the conservatives. It's the liberals. It's the Christian, or the Jew, or the Muslim. We all think we see the world clearly. Scripture paints a very different picture. Sin has produced in us the inability to see the world and one another clearly. This world and those who live in it are blinded to the reality of just how deep the wound of sin is.
1 Corinthians 13 points out that even when it comes to loving one another, we do not see clearly.
I haven't read all the posts to the blog, I may get to that. But I did want to make these observations.
What is your/my role in this? What action can you/I take? I love a good debate but what we feel doesn’t really matter unless it causes us to take action and is backed up by the truth. Otherwise we would all be talk show hosts.
I leave 2 comments that we should think about that may answer number these questions.
-The Way of the Master series once quoted someone saying (I couldn’t find it so I will have to paraphrase) :
“The Muslim world will not respect Christianity until Christians go to the Muslim world and be martyred by the hundreds or thousands�
-I think organizations like Samaritans Purse, Compassion Intl. and Dailt Freedom network are the answer. I think the question is “What are we doing about it.� is the most important one.
Hebrew 11:1 NIV
Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.
- The reality is that war is inevitable. I believe it is all on that road to finally usher in His second coming. We must focus on the reality of the hurting and the lost and our responsibility of them.
We have hope in His second coming, let’s act like we are certain of what we do not see.
Jesus said there will always be the poor; history shows us that war is a perennial and deadly issue; our modivations to help people will always be preoccupied in some fashion with illuminating the self rather than the other. Are these things there to show us that we should quit our jobs, leave our spouses and familys, and put aside our current responsibilities? Or are they there to make us callous to the situation and merely stick to the things at hand?
The former speaks of the rash person; the latter speaks of the cold-hearted, the coward. These things are perennial because they will never be settled. The poor will never go away; wars will never end; we will always be selfish in some fashion. However, what we do in our given context to buffer these things which cause us and others harm are to be handled as such--contextually. Whatever your vocation or situation, you do what you can from there. If you know you should take a risk and go to Africa, then take it, for that is your current vocation. Find your place, your risk, your vocation and in that context do two things which should be your means and your end-- love the Lord and love your neighbor, even your enemy. No seminary, no theological text, no preeminent philosopher can show you how.
Everything else, well, will hopefully become more clear as we learn from where we actually are. Jesus spoke in this fashion to remind us that things are in place for his glory, for all things are worked together for the good. Worry about today, for tomorrow has enough of its own problems.
I think we can agree that war is not the "preferred" solution. It is an awful thing and not to be sought out. For me, the rub comes when it gets personal. If someone is pointing a gun at my wife, my kids, or me, then what? If somebody wants to punch me in the nose and take my coat, I'll be upset, but I'll live. If they want me dead, then what? Leave my wife and kids without me? Dying for my faith is one thing, but I don't think the scriptures call us to stand by and watch while life is being taken. Are we in the right to kill in those circumstances? Because, if we okay that, then how far do we expand it? Are my wife and kids more important that someone else's? Should we stand up for the millions being slaughtered in Iraq? Or just those in Afganistan that pose a direct threat to our families? Or stand by and watch them (potentially) slaughtered? I don't know for sure. I know we are called to defend the defenseless, to stand up to evil, I guess that's where I come down.
A thought: Who are the brave people willing to share the gospel with the people who hate our country, both in word and in deed? Did anyone think to tell Saddam Hussein about Jesus? Is anyone praying for God to open Osama bin Laden's eyes to Him?
I mean, that's the way we make peace--we tell people about the Prince of Peace, the One who gives them peace in their souls and the ability to make peace with others. That's how we love our enemies--by telling them the love of Jesus and demonstrating that by serving them in one way or another. States, especially secular states like the US, can't do that. The Church can.
My initial question is whether or not Jesus was always non-violent. Take the Temple cleansing episode, for instance. (I know, I know, insert groan here). He used a whip he made with his own hands. He threw over tables and intimidated the people who had turned the Temple into a marketplace--or worse. Is this the picture of a non-violent Jesus?
Sure, that was the exception, but it's still there. It seems that violence and love can indeed exist together, and it seems they did, at least in this extreme case, in Jesus.
Chris, the bigger question is how to reconcile love, hate, and fear. The answer is quite simple: you don't.
Geof, the next question, then, is whether or not violence is always associated with hate and fear. Was it hate and/or fear that caused Jesus to clear the Temple?
No, but how often do we start wars because of loving our enemies? There's a big gulf there. :)
That's fair, of course.
The problem is when "loving our enemies" seems to conflict with "loving our neighbors". How do we reconcile two different loves that seem to be telling us to do different things? I think in a lot of ways, this is at the crux of the war issue.